Singer Entitlements - Rotations & Rewards

[Bigdog]

This is a break away from the too many singers topic.

Rotation seems to be the only thing that separates Good KJs from Bad KJs.

Singers have their ideas and KJs have theirs.


First of all..What entitles singers to think they have exclusive rights in the rotation?

Did you pay to get in the bar? No....!!!!

Did the KJ charge you a fee to sing? No!!!!

Half of you drink free water!!!!

Because you bought drinks and food? What about the nonsingers that drink and buy food? They contributed to the cause the same as you.

So far, no singer entitlement based on money.

So is it based on customer loyalty? Do you come faithfully every week or every karaoke night? Should that entitle you to some reward? If you do, good? What about if you don't?

Should the KJ be responsible for rewarding you? With what or how?

Should it be the bar owners responsibility? He makes out the most from the PAYING customers. Not from the free water drinkers.

The KJ only has a second hand benefits. My benefit is the amount of my preceived success. This could help me get more jobs and raise my fee. How much should the KJ reward the singers?

What about the nonsingers that come every week? Who or what kind of a reward should they get? They almost always out number the singers. Many nonsingers are just as loyal.

Let's examine the rotation fairness issue...

I will use math to help you understand the problem.

Many singers feel that being early should be rewarded by singing the most.

Yes & No...

Singers also want to cap the rotation length. This is good and bad.

Using math the established norm for the amount of songs played in a 4 hour show is 60 at 4 minutes a song estimated length.

That breaks down to 60 singers. 15 per hour.

Using the following example you will see why a rotation cap will not work or will not help the singers, the bar or the KJ. Which are the main reasons for doing karaoke in the first place.

I get to a show 1 hour early to set up. It takes me an hour to do this.

So if we use a 1 hour rotation cap 15 singers can sing in the first hour and each hour after that. All the first 15 singers know this so they get there at 8 o'clock to give me their slips for the night. Since they each know there will be 4 rotations during the night, each 1 hour long...they each give me 4 slips to reserve a song in each rotation. That means all the rotations are now full.

Good for the first 15 singers...bad for the bar the KJ and anyone else that wanted to sing that night. Does that seem fair?

Does it help the bar build a crowd knowing that only the same 15 singers will be singing all night long? Hardly.

So to make it more fair for more singers the cap needs to be moved to include 15 more singers. Sounds fair right? Wrong.

Now instead of 15 singers monopolizing the night now you have 30. Does that seem fair? If you are in the first 30 it does. What if you didn't make the first 30 number? You don't sing tonight. So why would you come here and spend your money? Remember the biggest factor in this entire karaoke thing is making money.

So now the 30 singers get there at 8 oclock and each hand me 2 slips one for each rotation that will last 2 hours. The rotations are full for the night at 8 o'clock.

This still has the potential of keeping the bar revenues low because many people will not show up because they know if they don't camp out on the sidewalk the night before to reserve a place in the rotation, they will not sing. Does that sound fair?

Now tell me what logical choice does the KJ have to make the night more accessible to more people? Remember the bar needs to make money. For 2 big reasons. #1 so they can remain in business and #2 so they can afford to pay someone to provide entertainment.

So how many singers still think the rotation cap idea is the best option to accomplish the money making goal???

How does the KJ maximize the number of singers to increase the crowd size to accomplish the money making goal????

Sounds like the insertion method is the only reasonable fair way to do this.

It's not all about the singers...it's about EVERYONE in the bar staying there all night so the bar makes money.

If you say make the singers give you a slip only after they sing, there could be many singers that will miss the next rotation because they didn't sing yet. Is that fair??


My goal is to be as fair to as many people singers and nonsingers as possible. I will never use the rotation cap method. It's just not fair to the singers, the bar owner or me.

I'm listening for other "good" rotation ideas...

[DanG2006]

Running a show where you are consistently fair whether you insert new singers or add them to the end of the rotation is the best way to keep singers. If you insert singers they get the idea that they can come in at anytime of the night and immediately get up within 3 or 4 singers. The end of the rotation gets them to come earlier so they get to sing.

[Bigdog]

Depending on how many singers you get and how fast they are coming in, some may not sing for as much as an hour or more even by doing the insertion method. It's not like they are going to sing more songs than someone that has been there all night long. They may very well be singing one and only one song. Shouldn't as many people as possible at least sing one song for being there patronizing the bar?

I've been getting 5-10 singers walking in basically at the same time. They need to get in because there are more coming behind them. It's the logistics of trying to juggle the traffic in a reasonable fashion. Just like a traffic cop. You may just pull up to the intersection and he lets you go. He may also hold you there for 10 minutes. He is trying to manage the flow to keep things moving smoothly.

Where these singers go depends on exactly where the end of the rotation is. They may get inserted. They may already be at the end of the rotation. The rotation may have just started over. The rotation may be getting ready to start over. It's logistics about what is going to work best based on the number of new singers and how fast they are coming. Some will sing right away some will wait an hour. I'm doing it as fairly as possible for everyone in the rotation. It also depends on the time of the night. If it's early things might be different than if it's the end of the night. We aren't talking about a 10 singer total rotation. It also depends on how many singers are already in the rotation. If I have 5 singers the new singers will go to the end. If I already have 25 singers they most likely are getting inserted somewhere. This is being done so they at least get to sing once. If they are only getting one song, does it really matter where they get to sing it? And everyone else in the rotation will get to sing their last song.

Making or forcing a singer to miss an entire rotation because they missed the rotation cap or were "late" in turning in another slip is not acceptable for me or my reputation. It's not fair unless you made the cut. And it won't be a positive factor in helping the bar make money.

It's about keeping the majority happy. I'm not deliberately trying to make anyone mad. Stupid rotation rules will do just that. You're only too late to sing, when you are too late getting there. Not because you didn't give me a slip in time after you have already sang in the last rotation.

Singers need to use more common sense.

I'm not skipping you if I put a singer in front of you.

They are not getting taken care of

They are not singing more than you.

We are all taking turns like we learned in kindergarden. When more people enter the mix it's going to take longer to get around the next time. COMMON SENSE. The rotation WILL get longer all night long. Every singer is there for the exact same thing. That happens to be to sing as much as they can. You are not the only singer that needs my attention.

There are 4 hours of singing. I'm going to get as many singers in that time period as humanly possible. FAIRLY ...My rotation management is going to accomplish all my goals.

[Bigdog]

Running a show where you are consistently fair whether you insert new singers or add them to the end of the rotation is the best way to keep singers. If you insert singers they get the idea that they can come in at anytime of the night and immediately get up within 3 or 4 singers. The end of the rotation gets them to come earlier so they get to sing.

You mentioned a good situation. If they know they can sing they will come. If they know they can't sing they won't come.

Do you want them to come in or not? What does the bar owner want? I want them to come in.

You could be chasing people away.

[Moonrider]

Running a show where you are consistently fair whether you insert new singers or add them to the end of the rotation is the best way to keep singers.


[Method A]If you insert singers they get the idea that they can come in at anytime of the night and immediately get up within 3 or 4 singers.


[Method B] The end of the rotation gets them to come earlier so they get to sing.

Exactly. And both methods have their pros and cons for the singers.

No matter what, if the show doesn't have a clear benefit to the bar that's paying for it, there will be no show at all. That sucks for the singers AND the KJ.

The clearest indication of benefit to the bar is a constant growth of gross receipts fueled by a constant growth in customer numbers.

Now, "Jane Random-Doe" walked in tonight for the first time on impulse. Which rotation method will be more likely to entice her to come back next week? A or B?

[Bigdog]

That's another factor to consider very closely.

I want make damn sure new people get to sing on my system. Once they do they're hooked.

[wiseguy]

If you insert singers they get the idea that they can come in at anytime of the night and immediately get up within 3 or 4 singers.

This is exactly what I want them to think. I don't want anyone to think that since the show has been going on for two hours that there would be no point in them showing up. Also, I have several singers who work the afternoon shift and come to the show directly from work.

While it would be great if everyone showed up in the first half hour and stayed all night this just isn't the reality. You must use the singer insertion method to run an effective rotation.

[Sabrina59]

I tend to believe that a rotation cap would be show killer. I've never heard of anyone doing that.

There are so many variables involved that I think we have to be flexible, yet remain fair and consistant.

A large rotation may require the insertion method. Towards the end of the night, if you have to shut down at a certain time, may require the insertion method. A new singer to the show may require the insertion method.

Other than the scenarios listed above, what's wrong with putting folks at the end of the rotation?

I treat my singers the way I would like to be treated. Very, very seldom have I ever inserted a new singer in the rotation.

As far as rewards go ... singing at my show is reward enough. Actually, I do reward folks who stay until closing. The last song is an "Everybody Sing Song" that everyone who is there is invited to sing. My regulars really like it and will usually stay for it, unless the show is running very late.

[Bigdog]

One of my competition has a web site and one of his famous selling points is...new singers get inserted in 5 singers. So if 5 singers walk in at one time all 5 get inserted after the fifth singer????? How does he do that?

No wonder he is ready to go out of business and can't work nearly as steady as I do and when he does get a job he usually loses it pretty quickly.

The insertion method has to be a fair balance for all the singers. This guy doesn't sound fair. It actually sounds like a smoke and mirrors cheap trick to try to intice new singers to his show.

[Bigdog]

I tend to believe that a rotation cap would be show killer. I've never heard of anyone doing that.

There are so many variables involved that I think we have to be flexible, yet remain fair and consistant.

A large rotation may require the insertion method. Towards the end of the night, if you have to shut down at a certain time, may require the insertion method. A new singer to the show may require the insertion method.

Other than the scenarios listed above, what's wrong with putting folks at the end of the rotation?
I treat my singers the way I would like to be treated. Very, very seldom have I ever inserted a new singer in the rotation.

As far as rewards go ... singing at my show is reward enough. Actually, I do reward folks who stay until closing. The last song is an "Everybody Sing Song" that everyone who is there is invited to sing. My regulars really like it and will usually stay for it, unless the show is running very late.

This one may be the hardest for the singers to swallow...

Some part of my job requires the bar to make money.

When we are in the last rotation of the night, what usually happens whenever the singers know they sang their last song???? Right after they sing they leave.

By doing an insertion of new singers I just made the old singers stay a little longer, possibly they may have bought another drink to last them til they sing again.

This is not the entire reason for doing insertions, but it doesn't hurt. I'm not saying it's my main motivation for doing it that way. I'm just saying it might help the bars bottom line. Everyone stays a little longer.

This could help the bar recover some of the lost income from the serious water drinkers...

I have some girls and guys that come to sing and stay all night long. They will only have a drink on the table if someone else buys it.

I'm treating them the same as someone that drinks like a fish. It's not my duty to decide who sings based on how much money they spend. If the bar owner doesn't say anything about it, who am I to judge???

Again, it's not the main reason to insert singers. It could be a valid reason.

[Bigdog]

How about this one????

When we get a cronic whiner we deliberately insert singers in front of them...

Just kidding but it could happen.