Back up your karaoke disc collection?

Post by **wiseguy** » Thu Oct 21, 2004 1:26 pm

How do you feel about the fact that you are not permitted to make back up copies of your legally purchased CDG discs? Or the fact that you cannot convert the tracks of your CDG discs to MP3+G and load them onto your laptop. Is it right for the CDG manufacturers to charge you full price to replace discs that have been destroyed or stolen? What do you believe you pay for when you purchase a CDG?

overthehill2 · Post by **overthehill2** » Sun Oct 24, 2004 5:16 am

I may be wrong on how I feel but forgive me....if I purchase something I feel it is mine. I think I should be able to make a back up copy if I so desire. I'm sure this will start trouble but you asked how I felt. Thanks for allowing me to voice how I feel.

tim_myth · Post by **tim_myth** » Thu Nov 04, 2004 7:59 am

When I buy a CD, I feel I am buying the content of the CD. The physical disc itself is just the wrapper the candy comes in. It can and should be discarded (in an appropriately marked container of course). When I buy the CD, I have purchased the right to use that song in my shows, in my car, in my house, in my office, or even as a frisbee.

Telling me that I can't legally convert the contents of that CD to more usable format like MP3 when no such format is available for sale is simply worrying about what *might* happen. It convicts me of being a common criminal before I've commited a crime.

I highly doubt certain manufacturers and KAPA would disagree with you using a disc for any purpose (legal or not) that resulted in the destruction of the disc. Perhaps we just need new CD+G rippers that consume the CD+G in the process.

eskimo karaoke · Post by **eskimo karaoke** » Thu Dec 01, 2005 2:46 pm

I know I've made backup copies of my CDG's because they get scratched and worn with regular use and I won't jeopardize my business because I've got faulty music. I've purchased the right to use these discs and don't feel it should be limited by the life of a disc.

DanG2006 · Post by **DanG2006** » Sun Jan 01, 2006 11:59 pm

there has been several attempts to take various companies to court for copying songs onto a cavs jukebox and failed to win. So I guess that answers whether we can protect our investments or not.

tim_myth · Post by **tim_myth** » Mon Jan 02, 2006 9:34 am

Do you have case numbers? Can you point me to any news stories about this? I'd like to read the legal notes.

DanG2006 · Post by **DanG2006** » Mon Jan 02, 2006 1:18 pm

I don't have actual cases but it has been stated on sound Choice's board from the big rep there.

SongDragon · Post by **SongDragon** » Sat Jan 14, 2006 4:01 pm

You DO have the right to back up your karaoke music in ANY format. For more information on your rights, visit http://www.ipjustice.org/karaokefairuse.shtml

Post by **wiseguy** » Sat Jan 14, 2006 6:09 pm

You DO have the right to back up your karaoke music in ANY format. For more information on your rights, visit http://www.ipjustice.org/karaokefairuse.shtml

Interesting article, although it is heavily laden with legal jargon. It's basically the author's interpretation of recorded music copyright laws in their relation to karaoke recordings. Although I totally agree with the summation it does not negate the fact that KAPA, and some karaoke disc manufacturers, routinely file law suits against individuals who convert their CDG collection to a digital format. Whether or not they can actually win the suits aside, the cost of defending against them is exorbitant.

tim_myth · Post by **tim_myth** » Sat Jan 14, 2006 7:15 pm

That is an old article, but quite relevant for home users. No one in their right mind would argue that a home user can't make back ups of their discs. I will however play Devil's Advocate so my fellow KJ's can see the issues more clearly.

As a KJ, I am a commercial user so "Fair Use" for me is not nearly as lenient as it is for home users. Fair Use is determined by the following four factors:

(1) the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes;
(2) the nature of the copyrighted work;
(3) the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and
(4) the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work.

In the case of an audiovisual work like a karaoke song,
(1) These are commercial, for-profit, uses of the disc. I make money by having these songs. This test would favor the copyright holder, not the KJ.
(2) The work is a creative work and not a derivative work. Creative works are typically afforded more protections. Again, this would tend to favor the copyright holder and not the KJ, but it is pretty nuetral.
(3) Making a back-up copy means using the whole portion of the song. How good would a backup of only half the song be? Again, this would seem to favor the copyright holder.
(4) This is the million dollar question. Does a karaoke song help sell more copies of the real song? If a digital download of the song is not available, how can I hurt their digital download market by creating my own digital copy? If I purchase one copy of the disc for each karaoke system I run but use a digital version and keep the disc safely in my office, have I impacted their CD+G sales market?

Besides, several of the cases Gross and Woodburn cite are not entirely relevant for KJs. For example, RIAA v. Diamond dealt with the manufacture of a personal mp3 player (granted businesses may use them, but they are targeted at consumers). Quoting the American Home Recording Act ignores that one keyword: Home. 17 U.S.C. § 117 could deal with any song already in digital format like CAVS downloads, but CD+Gs are clearly audiovisual works as ABKCO v. Stellar shows. Besides, as ABKCO v Stellar shows, CD+G's are not phonorecords, therefore they have their own set of licensing requirements. If CD+G's aren't treated like phonorecords, why should we expect them to be treated like software and therefore afforded the same Fair Use rights as software? That's just silly.

So, while I agree it is fair for a KJ to use digital copies in their shows, I would love to see actual cases that are applicable to us. The cases Dan mentions involving KAPA and CAVS jukeboxes would be a good read. I think a KJ who is trying to be as honest as possible by owning one disc per system would be aquitted of any charges, but it would result in a lengthy and expensive lawsuit which would break me and drive me out of business even if I were found innocent. I'd win the battle but lose the war. On the same note, maybe the reason we have not seen any of these cases is because KAPA doesn't think it can win?

tim_myth · Post by **tim_myth** » Sat Jan 14, 2006 7:26 pm

Wiseguy, you are too quick for me. I guess that's what four kids and slow typing gets me.

Post by **wiseguy** » Sat Jan 14, 2006 8:12 pm

Wiseguy, you are too quick for me. I guess that's what four kids and slow typing gets me.

Well Tim, my kids are grown and gone but I can certainly relate to the slow typing.

DanG2006 · Post by **DanG2006** » Sun Jan 15, 2006 5:41 pm

I personally don't know of any but according to another poster at another forum Bob from sound choice has made the statement that they have lost on such cases more than once on the sound choice forum.

DanG2006 · Post by **DanG2006** » Sun Jan 15, 2006 6:04 pm

You know I hate people who have nothing better to do than to post lies they can't back up on forums. Just did a search on SC's forum for the posts that the guy on the forum posted that it was said. Think it was on Jolt. Result NADA.

tim_myth · Post by **tim_myth** » Sun Jan 15, 2006 9:52 pm

Lol! I hear you there Dan.

My guess is that anyone has ever gotten a cease and desist letter has folded without a fight. Using the RIAA lawsuits as an example, scare tactics are the first "volley" in a copyright infringement case. I consider myself well read on Copyright law, but I freely admit that I am not a lawyer, much less an IP lawyer. I know that I don't have the money to fight a Copyright infringment lawsuit, even if it were entirely bogus. If I weren't able to get financial backing from someone like the EFF or find a pro bono lawyer, I'd have to cave.

This is the one reason I would love it if KJ's had a nationwide organization like ADJA or NAME to help us get clarification on big issues like this. I doubt Sound Choice, Chartbusters, et al. would bother answering me with anything other than their standard denial form letter if I asked any questions on computer back-ups of my karaoke discs. I don't know any congressmen nor have enough money to become aquainted with one, so I'll never get a response there either. And, I highly doubt I could convince a few thousand KJs to send me ten bucks so I could hire a lawyer to provide definitive answer. This is a problem that is just too large for one KJ to take on alone, so I'll continue doing what I'm doing, hoping tomorrows mailbox is devoid of nasty grams and that the karaoke companies continue their complaicency.

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