Lawsuit Question

Post by **wiseguy** » Sun Jun 23, 2013 9:37 am

With no strong opposition they are gong to be able do achieve everything they're attempting. I too will be retiring from karaoke shortly so this will not affect me. If I were just a few years into the business I'd be working to organize an alliance against this takeover of the commercial karaoke industry.

The Lone Ranger · Post by **The Lone Ranger** » Sun Jun 23, 2013 10:40 am

Maybe strong opposition will not be needed. It is just as hard for everything to come together and create the perfect storm situation for these manus, as it is for hosts to organize into a united front. There are just too many competing forces involved. You have to remember wiseguy you would need the manus and the publishers working together. This will be hard to do since the publishers have taken these same manus to court over their producing product without proper licensing. The manus have pirated themselves, and now want to legally spank others for what they have done in the past. It still remains to be seen if they will be able to stop the downloading of materials from overseas. To interfere with international trade. There is little doubt in my mind the goals of SC and CB/DTE are dangerous to the future of commercial karaoke, at least for the independent operator. Just how successful this plan is will determine the amount of money they stand to make. Even if they can convince 20% of the current hosts to join they stand to make a ton of dough. It depends on how effective a selling tool the legal process becomes, since this is their sole approach to marketing now.

Bigdog · Post by **Bigdog** » Sun Jun 23, 2013 3:20 pm

The next thing to happen is we will be labled as an international piracy ring for downloading from out of the country..

The only way is to kill the manufacturers by not supporting them and their antics..

Post by **wiseguy** » Sun Jun 23, 2013 4:18 pm

As with most everything there are also positive aspects to this issue. Unfortunately they don't apply to the veteran KJ who has purchased a lot of music on discs.

For the upstart KJ a good selection of quality music is available without a huge upfront investment. The law suits will also help weed out many of the illegal KJs using pirated music thus giving them an unfair advantage over those who obtain their music legally.

Another way to look at it is if every KJ had virtually the same song library, that would allow the ones with a better sound system, the expertise to provide the best sound, and that do the best job at running shows, to take the lion's share of the available gigs.

If the manufacturers want veteran KJs to submit to an audit in order to obtain immunity from law suits they need to offer the audits in a way that it will not cost the KJ anything. If they can't come to the KJ they need to reimburse any expenses incurred for the KJ to go to them. After all, these KJs were loyal customers that purchased their products (when they were actually in the business of producing a product).

Music piracy is a very big problem in the karaoke industry and it affects everyone involved. If you're having trouble getting gigs you can be sure that piracy plays a major part in that. It also plays a major role in the price you can demand for your shows as there are so many illegal KJs out there that can perform shows cheaply.

All this being said I still detest the way the manufacturers are going about this by using the legal ploy of suing for displaying their company logo from a format shifted song track in order to force even legitimate KJs into an audit. That's just dirty business in my opinion. They should be doing more thorough investigations and targeting ONLY those KJs that they know beyond a reasonable doubt are using pirated music.

The Lone Ranger · Post by **The Lone Ranger** » Sun Jun 23, 2013 5:26 pm

Unfortunately that takes time and money two things the two manus don't seem much interested in right now spending. Using their standard if you are using a PC in your show and you have not obtained permission from the manu to shift the product, then you can expect to hear from their legal department in the form of a lawsuit.

Post by **wiseguy** » Sun Jun 23, 2013 8:03 pm

The Lone Ranger wrote: Unfortunately that takes time and money two things the two manus don't seem much interested in right now spending. Using their standard if you are using a PC in your show and you have not obtained permission from the manu to shift the product, then you can expect to hear from their legal department in the form of a lawsuit.

That is the reality of the situation. If everyone would go back to using discs for a couple of years it would sure put a crimp in their plans. I also have to wonder about the legality of sending "undercover" agents into venues to spy on the KJs. Could it be possible for venues to post a notice that those affiliated with karaoke music manufacturers or their representatives are not permitted on the property without a warrant. I know In my state EVERY bar is considered a private club and the owner can refuse access to anyone.

Bigdog · Post by **Bigdog** » Mon Jun 24, 2013 4:16 am

I'm very sure in the archives of all the karaoke forums there are many places in threads where we could prove that a certain Sound Choice freely told everyone they had their permission to do a format shift to a hard drive to do commercial applications for pay.

That should end any lawsuit.

Wait a minute you gave everyone permission to do so and now you want to sue them for doing it?

CASE FREAKIN' CLOSED

The Lone Ranger · Post by **The Lone Ranger** » Mon Jun 24, 2013 9:39 am

Only one problem Bigdog it would seem that is the manu's product and they can change the rules evidently before, after and during the game. At least that is what they are telling the hosts and venues.

DanG2006 · Post by **DanG2006** » Mon Jun 24, 2013 12:50 pm

Lone that is the truth about it. SC gave permission to copy from disc to disc (NOT disc to hard drive) in 1998 as long as you kept the original disc. In the earlier 2000's they have stated that hard drive karaoke is illegal when it comes to their product. IN 2010 they made the change over to 1:1 ratio between discs and hard drive but set a requirement for that permission to have an audit done to make sure the format shifter had the discs to back up their SC collection. That is their position to this day.

Bigdog · Post by **Bigdog** » Mon Jun 24, 2013 1:11 pm

I still say we have the power to put them out of business...stop buying from them..

DanG2006 · Post by **DanG2006** » Mon Jun 24, 2013 1:51 pm

Why should I stop buying from them. They are only trying to protect their product from pirates. They do not offer downloads, and karaoke channel does not count as it is for home use only, for commercial use. The only ones that offer downloads for commercial use in the US is Digitrax and All Star.

The Lone Ranger · Post by **The Lone Ranger** » Wed Jun 26, 2013 9:30 am

[quote="DanG2006"]Lone that is the truth about it. SC gave permission to copy from disc to disc (NOT disc to hard drive) in 1998 as long as you kept the original disc. In the earlier 2000's they have stated that hard drive karaoke is illegal when it comes to their product. IN 2010 they made the change over to 1:1 ratio between discs and hard drive but set a requirement for that permission to have an audit done to make sure the format shifter had the discs to back up their SC collection. That is their position to this day.[/quote]

In light of the recent decision in Kirtsaeng v John Wiley & Sons, I think it will be hard for the manus to make up rules as they go along in the future. Employing the doctrine of first-sale, "the legal purchaser of a copyrighted-protected item may dispose of that property anyway he or she sees fit". This tells me if the purchaser say can resell the product, he should also be able to adapt that product to suit his business needs. This puts the responability back on the manu as far as proving whether or not the product was purchased in the first place. The mere shifting of the product will not be enough to start a suit anymore.

Post by **wiseguy** » Wed Jun 26, 2013 10:32 pm

DanG2006 wrote:Lone that is the truth about it. SC gave permission to copy from disc to disc (NOT disc to hard drive) in 1998 as long as you kept the original disc. In the earlier 2000's they have stated that hard drive karaoke is illegal when it comes to their product. IN 2010 they made the change over to 1:1 ratio between discs and hard drive but set a requirement for that permission to have an audit done to make sure the format shifter had the discs to back up their SC collection. That is their position to this day.

Not true. A year before they started the audit requirement they told us we could format shift as long as we were 1:1.

dad47 · Post by **dad47** » Thu Aug 22, 2013 3:30 pm

I'm pretty sure that if they want to stop down loading from out of country that they can get it done. Think about the big deal just recently about the online gambling. You no longer can get out of country gamers to let you register and play for real money. So many pressures by the casino's were put on the government to shut down online gambling in Us that it was done. They make us think it was because of some illeagal happenings but we all know the gaming commission spent millions to shut it down. Same can happen to Karoake downloads from out of country. However it is slowly coming back as now Nevada has legal online gambling as long as you reside in Nevada. Other states are in the process of getting it done also.

With that said I own some chartbuster disc's I purchased. Are they illegal to use. I mainly use them for personal stuff but also from time to time get friends and relatives into singing. Are my disc's illegal.

Thanks Dad

DanG2006 · Post by **DanG2006** » Fri Aug 23, 2013 4:18 pm

No they are not illegal. If you were to start doing shows at a bar with your setup then if you copied more than 10 discs without getting permission from piracy LLC through an audit then you would be technically illegal since you haven't obtained permission to shift. The same goes for SC discs.