Too Many Singers and What to do with Them.

[Sabrina59]

I still have to agree with Gregory on this subject. I do not insert new singers between old singers. New singers go to the back of the rotation, period.

As a singer, I like to know who I am following. As a KJ, I like my singers to know who they are following. It cuts down on the amount of times I am asked how soon until they are up.

I think the big difference here is the size of the rotations. My little show has grown to an average of about 18 singers a night. If I am just starting a new rotation, and someone puts a slip up, even if I put them at the end they don't have long to wait. From the sounds of it, Gregory frequents a small show as well.

If i had 30 or 40 people in the rotation I might consider using the "insertion" method as well. But the way I do it works well for me. I've only had folks inserted in front of me a couple of times, and, I must say, I didn't like it.

18 songs, at the four minute per song average, is an hour and twelve minutes.

It's three hours into a four hour show. You have 18 singers, that by this time, have all sang at least twice. Two people come in, order a drink, and turn in song requests. From what you have stated here these singers would not be allowed to sing.

This is not acceptable to me.

Perhaps I am in a unique position, wiseguy. We are more like family that gets together for a fun-filled evening.

My show starts at 6 and ends after 9. I end the show at the end of a rotation. So, in your example, yes, those singers would sing their song.

I am not convinced that there is a right way and a wrong way to do the rotation as long as you are fair and consistent. The way I do it works very well for me, the way you do it works well for you.

[Bigdog]

I still have to agree with Gregory on this subject. I do not insert new singers between old singers. New singers go to the back of the rotation, period.

As a singer, I like to know who I am following. As a KJ, I like my singers to know who they are following. It cuts down on the amount of times I am asked how soon until they are up.

I think the big difference here is the size of the rotations. My little show has grown to an average of about 18 singers a night. If I am just starting a new rotation, and someone puts a slip up, even if I put them at the end they don't have long to wait. From the sounds of it, Gregory frequents a small show as well.

If i had 30 or 40 people in the rotation I might consider using the "insertion" method as well. But the way I do it works well for me. I've only had folks inserted in front of me a couple of times, and, I must say, I didn't like it.

18 songs, at the four minute per song average, is an hour and twelve minutes.

It's three hours into a four hour show. You have 18 singers, that by this time, have all sang at least twice. Two people come in, order a drink, and turn in song requests. From what you have stated here these singers would not be allowed to sing.

This is not acceptable to me.

Perhaps I am in a unique position, wiseguy. We are more like family that gets together for a fun-filled evening.

My show starts at 6 and ends after 9. I end the show at the end of a rotation. So, in your example, yes, those singers would sing their song.

I am not convinced that there is a right way and a wrong way to do the rotation as long as you are fair and consistent. The way I do it works very well for me, the way you do it works well for you.

What is your definition of fair, because that seems to be the sticking point?

FAIR..... marked by impartiality and honesty : free from self-interest, prejudice, or favoritism <a very fair person to do business with> b (1) : conforming with the established rules : allowed (2) : consonant with merit or importance : due <a fair share> c : open to legitimate pursuit, attack, or ridicule <fair game>

Whether it's your family or friends, you think your rotation system is fair. I think mine is fair. Wiseguy thinks his is fair.

How come some singers don't think they are fair????

There are many KJs that are anything but fair. Their friends like them because they are the recipiants of their favoritism. Other singers that get deliberately mistreated don't find them fair. They are consistantly unfair. Making any singer wait 2 entire rotations before they sing one song is unfair. It happened to me. I would never do that to any singer. Friend or foe. Even if it was my KJ competition. Everyone gets the same from me.

Bigdog... you keep trying to justify yourself and how you run your shows by applying generalities to a specific situation.

You asked me several time whether or not I thought the way you run your shows is fair. I didn't answer before, but I will now. No, I don't. I think you're trying to justify the fact that that you're a petty tyrant who doesn't like the people who sing in your shows, to tell you the truth.

You're right about one thing though. It's not just about one person. It's not just about you.

It's about me doing what is fair for all to accomplish the reason I was hired. To take care of the paying customers. To facilitate and provide music and lyrics for the people that want to sing. Make money for the bar. Attract more people to the bar. Keep everyone there ..there and buying. That's about me. It's my job. It's my responsibility. I take it personal. Taking care of the majority of the crowd. That includes the whiners and complainers to a certain point. I'm not there for them. They are not going to disrupt and detract from what I have to do during the entire night. That is to put on a top quality professional karaoke show. Not babysit and change diapers. It's to help each singer be the best they can by doing what I do best. Yeah it's all about me. My goal for the evening. I succeed every night. No complainer is going to stop me or slow me down or keep me from fulfilling my commitment and my obligation. It's not about the cronic complainer. Take it to someone that cares because I don't and I'm not getting paid enough by anyone to care that much. My show will not suffer from it. You are right I am totally about me. Nobody can or will hijack my show because it's bigger than you and your imaginary wants and needs. I'm the Emcee. I'm in charge. I'm responsible. It's not the singers show, it's mine. It's not the nonsingers show, it's mine. It's not the bar owners show, it's mine. I'm number 1 all the time. KJs that let ANYONE dictate how they think the show should run will fail miserably. It's my show alright. The show is never anything but how I want it to be.

My singers are the cream of the crop. I make them want to come because I can make them sound like professionals. My shows will rival any as far as the talent level and the professionalism. My shows are a pleasure to listen to all night long.

I will never be able to make 100% of the crowd totally happy 100% of the time. I don't even try because it's impossible whenever you have someone that thinks the entire world is against them. Just like I'll never have every song someone wants to sing. I don't try because that is impossible mostly from a money aspect. 40,000 song would cost somewhere between $80-100,000 dollars.

So take me or leave me. There are KJs out there that will take every complainer they can get. They need the warm bodies and I need the room for people that enjoy and respect what I can do.

Gregory, Back to the answer to your original question....because we can.

[mnementh]

I will never tell a singer when they will be up unless they are on on deck to sing next. If they ask I will let them know if they have time to smoke but that's it.

You think in terms of what is fair to you and we think in terms of what is fair to everyone.

This is an interesting point and it has prompted me to think about an "addition" to my Karaoke kit.

Namely a small blackboard (or whatever the "Politically Correct" BS term for it is these days) with an estimated "time to your song if you request NOW", in plain view.

Exactly as mentioned in earlier posts, this would be relatively easy to estimate at 4 minutes a song.

Even easier if one of the software manufacturers would insert a "remaining song time" indicator in their screen displays.

I think I'll email Latshaw to see how plausible it would be!

Sandy

[mnementh]

Ah me!!!

RTFM, as the saying goes.

It seems Karma already has this feature built in and if I'd bothered to examine the screen more closely, I would have noticed the timer above the Playlist panel that clearly shows the total time of ALL tracks AND separately, the total time of Karaoke songs only.

Sandy

[Bigdog]

Sax & Dottys has the countdown feature and I use it all the time to tell smokers they have 1 minute left or 30 seconds left.

I never announce how many singers there are or how long the rotation is.

I tell singers privately but not over the microphone. I think announcing this could have a negative affect on the crowd causing some to leave. The crowd mentality thing. Many people will act as one in this menatlity. If one leaves the other may follow.

Some things are better off unsaid. Again it's about the majority. Do you want to take the chance of chasing people away??? I wouldn't do the chalk board. Too risky. It's bad enough they know it's going to take a while to sing again without them seeing it in writing constantly reminding them and maybe thinking it's not worth staying.

[Blind Gregory]

At least my nom de guerre is accurate though. A true "wiseguy" would at least provide a modicum of entertainment value. You haven't yet.

Nor any evidence of wisdom.

Wiseguy is also another way to reference one of the Mafia rank and file. Enforcer if you will.

Yep, that could be what he's refering to!

[Blind Gregory]

At least my nom de guerre is accurate though. A true "wiseguy" would at least provide a modicum of entertainment value. You haven't yet.

I'm not here for your entertainment... I'm here to set you straight.

By the way, what makes you think that any handicapped person regardless of how they may be handicapped, wants sympathy?

Usually I don't but you seem to have a need to make certain that everyone knows of your condition. Why is that? How often to you see usernames like "Deaf Jerry" or "Paraplegic Bob"? I never have.

wiseguy, I thought you were going to ignore me...

That certainly didn't last very long now, did it?

[Blind Gregory]

Being an Emcee requires NO talent. I don't care if your real name is Ed Sullivan. You didn't spend any money to put together a quality sound system. You weren't mixing the sound. You weren't playing an instrument and did you sing too or just do introductions? You didn't have to make up the line up. You didn't do lighting. Here's Johnny....wow

I'm coordinating the entire show. The success of the entire night depends on me. My mixing ability. My financial envestment. My ability to entertain a crowd. I can sing if needed the entire night, without being boring. Doing many different types of music and doing it well. I know over 600 songs. I can show you hunderds of KJs that can't do what I do or even come close. I'm sure you have seen at least one.

You've obviously never emceed a show, Bigdog, or you'd know that, at least in smaller productions, the emcee does coordinate the show. He or she also manages whatever staff is involved, such as whoever's running the sound board and the lighting crew, etc.

Ande, yes, I do play an instrument and sing as well as introducing the acts and whatever else I may need to do to fill in the time while the acts I'm supposed to introduce are getting ready backstage.

As I said, which you ignored of course, I've also done what you do, albeit on a smaller scale. In other words, yes Bigdog, I have worked as a KJ - on my own for private parties and, on occasion, to help out one of the KJs I sing for when "something came up" and they could do the shows themselves.

All I needed for that was somebody to handle the tech side of being a KJ. Not much work there, according to my helpers. (Yes, I did ask them.)

From that experience, I'm not as impressed with you as you are.

[Bigdog]

When you can run more than a 30 singer rotation which includes chasing people around the bar and/or outside to give them the microphone because they are next, when you can run the sound mixing all night long for every singer, when you can run the rotation without an interruption in the music, set up the 800 pounds of equipment and take it down and do all the troubleshooting, work karaoke steady 5-6 nights a week for 17 years while working a fulltime job, schedule 3 sound systems and all the help while maintaining 3 full size vehicles, by yourself, I'll be impressed.

Doing karaoke at a private party or wedding that doesn't depend on the steady income, that doesn't need a steady crowd, isn't what I do. From my wedding/private party experience, I had to do half of the actual entertaining by singing myself. The rotation isn't usually formal by any stretch of the imagination. You take any singer you can get because everyone wants to wait until someone else sings. They aren't worried about..hey I'm supposed to be up after Mary. You're just taking care of your friends. At the wedding, I've been the entertainment coordinator and had to dictate all the proceedings because nobody else knew what to do or when to do it.

As the emcee, you telling the sound guy to mix the sound and telling the light guy turn on the lights hardly falls into my job description. I'm the technician. Nobody tells me to do anything because I have it all covered, by me. Telling the guitar player he's up next is hard. Juggler, you're after him. Sound guy, mix the sound..light guy work the lights. Try mixing the guitar player. Try being the juggler's assistant. Set up the sound board and work the controls. Figure out why the microphone doesn't work. I'm the equipment manager. I'm the equipment purchasing agent and equipment installer. I do all the repairs.

Apples to oranges.

I'm the guy responsible for every aspect of my show. No helpers. No secretary. No project manager. No roadies. No back up personnel. No sound man. I'm it. MC ME. I'm the complaint department too. I'm the PR guy. The advertising guy. I forgot more about karaoke than most KJs know.

I'm am impressive. It's not easy being me.

You originally asked why KJs do what they do with the rotation. I and others have given many viable, reasonable and valid explanations of our whys. Complete with details for each. You didn't hear the reason you want so we're the bad guys. In our eyes...you're the bad guy. You want to give us all your reasons that aren't backed up by valid reasoning. We do what works for the greater betterment of the crowd, the bar and our reputations.

If you found a KJ willing to kiss your A&& all night long, then by all means stay there and sing. I'm going to treat you just as fair as every other singer I get. Deal with it.

[Bigdog]

Being an Emcee requires NO talent. I don't care if your real name is Ed Sullivan. You didn't spend any money to put together a quality sound system. You weren't mixing the sound. You weren't playing an instrument and did you sing too or just do introductions? You didn't have to make up the line up. You didn't do lighting. Here's Johnny....wow

I'm coordinating the entire show. The success of the entire night depends on me. My mixing ability. My financial envestment. My ability to entertain a crowd. I can sing if needed the entire night, without being boring. Doing many different types of music and doing it well. I know over 600 songs. I can show you hunderds of KJs that can't do what I do or even come close. I'm sure you have seen at least one.

You've obviously never emceed a show, Bigdog, or you'd know that, at least in smaller productions, the emcee does coordinate the show. He or she also manages whatever staff is involved, such as whoever's running the sound board and the lighting crew, etc.

Ande, yes, I do play an instrument and sing as well as introducing the acts and whatever else I may need to do to fill in the time while the acts I'm supposed to introduce are getting ready backstage.

As I said, which you ignored of course, I've also done what you do, albeit on a smaller scale. In other words, yes Bigdog, I have worked as a KJ - on my own for private parties and, on occasion, to help out one of the KJs I sing for when "something came up" and they could do the shows themselves.

All I needed for that was somebody to handle the tech side of being a KJ. Not much work there, according to my helpers. (Yes, I did ask them.)

From that experience, I'm not as impressed with you as you are.

This is because 98% of the working KJs can haul their entire sound system in a glove compartment. Sound systems that only take 10 minutes to set up aren't much problem. I'm not impressed with many systems or KJs.

More apples to oranges.

[Blind Gregory]

Actually, just more of you trying to justify yourself, Bigdog.

I just wish you liked what you're doing and the people you need to do it with.

[Bigdog]

Actually, just more of you trying to justify yourself, Bigdog.

I just wish you liked what you're doing and the people you need to do it with.

You have no idea what I'm about.

From the minute I decided I was going to start KJing, my goal was to be the best KJ in the area, match my fulltime income and promote quality karaoke. My sound system is better and bigger than 99% of other KJ's anywhere. That includes the quality. I have been doing this 17 years. I take great pride in my total package. My mixing abilities, my sound system, my talent level to entertain and the quality of the singers I regularly attract. My goal is to promote karaoke as a viable form of entertainment. This is totally different than most KJs that just want to drink, party and have fun while making a little bit of money.

My show is nonstop. No waiting for singers to make there way to the stage. No filler music diversions. And no dance sets. Total karaoke singing from the first note to the last. My show is ONLY about the singers having the best experience they can have.

I'll match or exceed my total package against anything or anyone you want to put against me. No KJ around scares me.

Oh and my income matching goal. I surpassed my fulltime income for the past 17 years. You don't do that by accident. I've been justified from day one. Watched many other KJs fail miserably. Run with the Bigdog or act like a porch puppy.

[Blind Gregory]

Sorry, Bigdog. running with you doesn't really sound all that good to me. I think I'll st6ick with my porch puppies.

For one thing, you're the one who brought up the whole "It's not all about you" thing, but you've made it pretty clear that, for you, it is. That's kinda sad IMHO.

For another, you're wotking a full time job plus 5-6 nights or KJing for people you just don't like and you're pretty much doing it all alone. Sounds to me like you really need to get yourself a life!

I'm starting to truly pity you, Bigdog.

[Bigdog]

you are intitled to your O-P-I-N-I-O-N.

I said it's not all about one or two crybaby singers. There are other people in the bar that need and want to be entertained or they will go somewhere else. So even though my show is geared toward the singers having the best time and experience they can have by singing on a professional system, it not all about them exclusively. There are many parts to the equation and each is equally important to the overall success. KJs that can figure it out don't last long.

My stats say something totally different. My reputation says something too. There aren't many KJs in my league. Most singers only know what IMITATION karaoke shows look and sound like. Most of the systems are quite embarrassing to hear. They must like singing on half systems with cheap microphones. If you want the real thing, find me. Treat yourself to a new experience. Raise to a new level. You won't want to go back to whatever you're singing on now. I guarantee it. Hundereds of my loyal singers can't be wrong. I have 3, 150-200 disc books full of slips I save for my singers. That's where I get my numbers. The proof in in writing for all to see. Many have over 25 song slips. I have only been saving slips for three years now. Each singer has his own disc slot for slips by alphabetical order. It's why my average rotation is 1 1/2 hours and up.

Actually I retired 5 1/2 years ago and I wasn't 62 and I'm still not even close. Karaoke has been very good to me. Must be imaginary money from imaginary singers and imaginary bar owners. Karaoke is my only job and the only reason I still like doing it is because I don't attract the screaming drunk crowd that so many other IMITATION KJs get. It's actually a pleasure to listen to all my singers all night long.

Most KJs are surprised when they get a good singer, I'm surprised when somebody sucks.

So how do you like howling with the porch puppies. I have cleaned up the mess left after many many porch puppy KJs.

[Blind Gregory]

Actually, I like "howling with the porch puppes". In fact, I like it a lot.

It may not be at your (alleged) calibre, but there's a lot to be said for the intimacy of smaller shows.