Too Many Singers and What to do with Them.

[Bigdog]

There is a fairness issue to your story.

If the KJ is being fair and the insertion method he uses is the same for everyone I see no problem.

If the KJ is inserting his friends or people he wants to take care of or he is doing it to personally screw you, then I have a big problem with it. I hope this isn't the case.

There are many things we as good KJs have to overcome from the reputations created by the bad KJs. Bad KJs usually pay the price by losing their jobs because the crowds eventually get tired of their tricks.

You need to find out who is getting inserted and why? You will have to do it on the sly because if he finds out you could pay another price.

When I do my insertions they are not people I want to take care of. First come, first served. I would do it for you the same as anyone else.

I had a new singer get mad and leave tonight because he didn't like the way things were going.

I will not tell any singer who they can sing with on their turn. He didn't like the fact that some girl that sang with another girl on her turn was singing with another girl on her turn. It wasn't the same girl requesting 3 songs in the same rotation. It was 3 different girls.

He left. Goodbye...don't let the door hit you in the A&&&&&&.

Here is why. 2 Reasons .... 1. What do you think he would say if I told him who he could sing with on his turn? 2....I know damn well if one of those girls asked him to sing a duet with them he would have in a heartbeat. And if I would have told him he just lost a turn because that counted as his song too, he would have been pi&&ed. So don't think you are going to get things both ways. Fair is fair. If you don't like fair...too bad. Stay gone.

I should have expected it from the guy he walked in with. This guy is an A&&hole from the get go and he has caused trouble before. He thinks everything should go the way he thinks it should. He also sucks (at best) as a singer and he has made serious statements before that people are coming just to hear him sing. Like there would be nobody there without him. The show will collapse and die.

[Blind Gregory]

You're kind of clouding the issue here, Bigdog...

Who the KJ inserts isn't relevant to the matter at hand. The problem is that he's inserting singers before other singers who have waited patiently for their turns and have finally reached somewhere close to the top of the rotation.

Explain to me how inserting a new singer at the top of the rotation is fair to anyone?

[wiseguy]

You're kind of clouding the issue here, Bigdog...

Who the KJ inserts isn't relevant to the matter at hand. The problem is that he's inserting singers before other singers who have waited patiently for their turns and have finally reached somewhere close to the top of the rotation.

Explain to me how inserting a new singer at the top of the rotation is fair to anyone?

New singers have to be inserted close to someone's next turn and sometimes that someone will be you. That's just the way it is and any KJ that runs a fair rotation will do things this way. I don't think Bigdog can explain this any clearer and I don't think you are capable of grasping the concept. No matter how you try to put a spin on it this is only about you not getting to sing as often as you think you should.

[Bigdog]

The rotation is a circle.

When I do my insertions, depending on how fast I'm getting new singers I start inserting them. It could be every 4 singers. It could be every other singer. This continues the entire way around the circle of singers.

I start the first singer insertion some place after the singer the is singing right now. Then we go around the circle. If I have new singers that go the entire way around the circle then eventually I need to put someone in front of the singers that just sang. To be fair I will insert a new one in front of every old one.

If there are 15 singers and I get 15 more ...figure it out ...new one old one new one old one.... Every old singer gets a new singer either depending on how you look at it ...before them and or after them.

I can not be any more fair. If you say put them at the end of the rotation you will still not sing again until 29 other people sing. It's all in the math. 30 singers times 4 minutes equals....your next song.

Keep thinking circle. The first singer in the rotation will always remain the first singer.....it's just going to take longer for them to sing again. Don't blame me because I get 30 singers and they all just didn't arrive together. There are people coming in all night long. If it is really busy there is no way for me to know if they just got there and want to sing or they have been there all night and finally decided to sing. So I insert them in the rotation.

I have had times where the last inserted singer didn't sing for over an hour and a half. How much longer should a new singers wait to sing their probably first and last song? What if they were there when I started?

Remember I am trying to be as fair as possible for the majority of the singers. Someone is bound to be unhappy about how long it takes. Don't hold me responsible for how many singers like singing on a great sounding system.

How would I be fair if I (ME) decided I'm going to pick certain people in the rotation to not insert someone in front of? Or I pick the first 10 singers to not insert in front of? Regardless whenever you have X amount of singers it will take 4 minutes per singer to go completely around the entire circle to get back to you.

There have been many times after the rotation has gone around again where I have to insert new singers in front of the new singers I inserted last time. It's a never ending process that will take place all night long.

I also have one other requirement. I want every singer to get to sing at least once in an evening. Is that air? It's not right if I have a 2 hour rotation, meaning if you came in an hour and a half before the night ends...you don't sing. They are still spending money in the bar. They may be the last singer of the night but they will sing.

Now if you walk in in the last half hour, maybe up to the last hour...forget about singing. I'm trying to be as fair as possible to the singers that have been here all night and patiently waiting.

KJs...fair KJs have a big rotation juggling act to perform all night long. This doesn't include mixing sound and running microphones and changing peoples song requests all night long and talking and joking with as many people as possible, answering who sings this song questions. While listening to the complainers about how long... And shouldn't I follow So & So? Yes until I get 15 new singers and it all changes. Yes if nobody else comes in tonight. Yes if I suck and I'm glad to have any singers. Yes if I take care of my friends.

Drink your drink, enjoy the music and and have as much fun as possible. Let me run the show and when it's your turn to sing you will. No games, no favoritism. Completely fair as possible for everyone. It's MY reputation. My amount of actual complainers is very low. Meaning 1. I'm doing it right. 2. Everyone is OK with the way I do it. 3. It must be fair.

Even the bar owner can't pull rotation tricks. I won't let them. Is that fair? His friends aren't going to jump ahead of anybody.

I already told a bar owner to look around the room. See the paying customers? Do you want them to leave? It will be a while until you sing again. At that point he has 2 choices. 1. Shut up and let me run the show and make him a lot of money or 2. he can tell me to pack up. Either way..I'm in control and since it's my reputation on the line it's going to be my way or the highway. Makes no difference to me. I'm not taking my fee from him for him to ruin my reputation for his gain.

When I say I'm fair about how I run my show I mean it and I stick by it. Now if my fairness is a problem for anyone they can go to another show. I don't care and I won't cry about it. I won't go out of business because of it. It will actually make my life better.

[Bigdog]

You're kind of clouding the issue here, Bigdog...

Who the KJ inserts isn't relevant to the matter at hand. The problem is that he's inserting singers before other singers who have waited patiently for their turns and have finally reached somewhere close to the top of the rotation.

Explain to me how inserting a new singer at the top of the rotation is fair to anyone?

No cloud...smoke and mirrors.

You sound like you are taking it personally. I don't say oh he's coming up soon so I better insert someone here. There are KJs that may very well do this. Again you must find out if the KJ does certain things for or against certain people. It happens. I've heard about it from many singers. I strongly suggest you find out how and why they do their insertion method. What is it based on?

Some KJs have this idea that they need to maintain a "HIGH ENERGY" show by playing all fast tempo songs. Meaning anyone that sings a slow song gets moved back in the rotation. They move you back if you sing country music. There are KJs that move people back because they suck singing. What is their motive? If one of these is their reason then you should take it persoanlly and be mad at them for it. NOT ME...

My rotation is run by one factor. FAIRNESS. My show is high energy because the music never stops. I don't care if you sing slow love songs. I don't care if you sing like a bird or a turd. (Now that's funny ) I don't care if you sing country or punk.

There are times...when I think the rotation is why too long and I want to get the first singers up again shortly.

The way I do that is to put an end to the rotation. There are new singers (that haven't sung one song yet) that didn't make that rotation so they have to go into the next rotation. I need to insert them in the new rotation so I start right after the first singer in that rotation. Then a new one old one and so on. So yes you have had a new singer inserted in front of you. They are going to sing their first song and you are going to sing your second song. They will never sing more songs than you. Is that fair? If they would have been in the last rotation it would have lasted longer and the time until your next song would have still been as long. This way you may have sung in less time than if they were left at the end of the last rotation.

It comes back to one basic fact...if you want to sing more...get there early and stay late.

But remember the number of songs you will actually sing depends on the total number of singers that are there. It's not dictated by me. It doesn't matter where they were in the rotation. The numbers decide. It's a numbers game. Less singers sing more songs. More singers sing less songs. The bane of karaoke.

My success has been a curse too. I have singers that like my show like me and like my system. But they won't come because they know they can't sing a lot. I can only worry about the ones that come and treat them fairly.

[Bigdog]

Change your mindset.

Instead of thinking about how long it takes, like it's a bad thing. You should be thinking about how many people will be hearing you sing when the time comes. It's like building the suspense. The people singing before you are the warm up acts for the main event. YOU.

[Bigdog]

I would complain more about filler music and dance sets taking up valuable singing time.

If the rotation is unfair then complain. If it's fair what else could you hope for?

[Blind Gregory]

You're kind of clouding the issue here, Bigdog...

Who the KJ inserts isn't relevant to the matter at hand. The problem is that he's inserting singers before other singers who have waited patiently for their turns and have finally reached somewhere close to the top of the rotation.

Explain to me how inserting a new singer at the top of the rotation is fair to anyone?

New singers have to be inserted close to someone's next turn and sometimes that someone will be you. That's just the way it is and any KJ that runs a fair rotation will do things this way. I don't think Bigdog can explain this any clearer and I don't think you are capable of grasping the concept. No matter how you try to put a spin on it this is only about you not getting to sing as often as you think you should.

wiseguy, are you intentionally being obtuse about this?

If I'm 3-5 singers away from performing, regardless of hiow long I've waited to sing, and the KJ puts somebdy who just came in ahead of me, that is not fair, no matter how you try to justify it.

The rotation is not a circle. It's a line, just like any other waitig line. If you were waiting in line to get into someplace and somebody cut in front of you in the line, would you think that was fair?

[Bigdog]

The singer/s I insert in front of you have probably been there at least a half hour or more. They are patiently waiting to sing their FIRST song. And if the rotation is 2 hours after they sing their first song it will be 2 hours before they sing again.

My rotation rules are clearly listed in each song book. It also includes the insertion method and how I will employ it when neccessary.

It is a circle. It's called a singing rotation, not a singing line. If it was one continuous line you would only sing once. Then if you want to sing again you would go where???? THE BACK OF THE LINE. If that line is 2 hours long, when will you see the teller again? 2 hours.

It's a rotating cicle and the time it takes to make a complete rotation is determined by the amount of singers. Nothing else.

You are getting this rotation information from some of the most honest, trustworthy KJs working today.

You could get different info from many many unscrupulous KJs that are everywhere. Maybe it depends on what you want to hear.

We could lie and tell you whatever you want to hear but it won't change anything.

Again I will remind you to find out exactly what your particular KJ is doing as far as being fair. Make sure he isn't giving friends and relatives and people with $20 bills extra favors. Is he playing singers promptly regardless of the type of song they pick? Regardlesss of their talent level. Regardless of the micro mini skirt they are wearing or their overly bulging open blouse.

You're the KJ......15 singers in a line (circle) need to go somehwere. Where do the next 10 singers go? Fairly....Now make it work smoothly for 4 hours. Wait 5 more just came in. Keep it fair......Look out here comes 6 more. They all have been buying drinks and food. You will need to these people to stay all night and to come back again next week. The bar needs to make money. You still need a job.
And...
Oh no here comes JOE and he sucks. Bob sings those slow love songs that put everyone to sleep. MARY always wants to sing obscure "broadway" songs. Awww here comes the guy that always complains about the rotation. MIKE never gives me a song slip he always wants me to write it down. HOLLY needs to leave early because her ride's here. BILL has a $20 in his hand and wants a BUMP UP FAVOR. SHARON is the designated driver and has to take HANK home..NOW...The bar owner wants to get this "hottie" up NOW... so he can take her home later. Here comes the complainer again...when am I singing????

Don't forget the guy that thinks he should sing every 15 minutes and the guy that can really get the crowd going...


We just make it LOOK easy...with smoke and mirrors...

[wiseguy]

Singer rotation is not a line. It is an ever evolving circle. There is only one rotation and it begins with the first singer and ends with the last song of the night. This cannot be compared to standing in line for tickets.

Bigdog, you are wasting your time trying to explain this any further. Gregory is simply incapable of understanding the concept of an evolving rotation.

[Blind Gregory]

No. I'm just getting tired of the KJ BS.

If calling what amounts to "waiting in line" to sing a circle is your only or best way of justifying your alleged "fairness", then fine. So be it.

It's still only a justification and it's still BS.

[wiseguy]

We don't need to justify a fair singer rotation. You need to justify not wanting to be fair to the other singers who arrived after you did.

[mnementh]

No. I'm just getting tired of the KJ BS.

If calling what amounts to "waiting in line" to sing a circle is your only or best way of justifying your alleged "fairness", then fine. So be it.

It's still only a justification and it's still BS.

Actually, it's not BS, it's exactly what it says.

A rotation is just that, something that is cyclical and when a singer is "injected" into that cycle, he/she takes his/her turn in that cycle.

I fail to see what you can possibly see that is unfair in that.

A number of people have put their names forward in front of "YOU" and therefore it is perfectly fair that they should sing before "YOU",

If the rotations is "fair", each person in front of "YOU" will sing ONE song and then it will be "YOUR" turn.

If the people in front of "YOU" have multiple songs up, then "YOU" will get to sing BEFORE their songs "ROTATE" and their second songs come up. Perfectly fair, IMHO. They might think differently, as they put their songs up before "YOU" entered the cycle and might believe they have the right to sing before "YOU".

I'm sorry bud, I fail to see what "YOU" think is unfair about that.

Sandy

[DanG2006]

No one in my shows sees someone sing twice before their next turn. Each gets their time on the stage. It is a circle thing, not a line. I insert before my marker singer (earliest singer in the bunch that is still there) if they aren't up yet. Otherwise they go to the bottom of the rotation so I guess I run a line show. The only position that changes is the last in line but it's an ever growing line as I get more singers. If I get to the end of that line I start a new rotation. If the Earliest singer is up when you hand me your slip (I am going slipless soon) then they go to the bottom of the list while the earliest singer is singing. If they just finished then I INSERT the new singer in front of them.

[Bigdog]

If a certain number of singers say 10-15 were the maximum number allowed to sing in a night and no others were allowed then everything would work as you want it.

In the real karaoke world new singers do come in at different times and unfortunately they don't all get there at 9PM. So when do I say you can't sing because you got here too late? 9:05 PM, 9:30 PM? 10:00 PM?

There is still a lot of money to be spent on food and drink between 9:05 and 1 AM. By people that came as you to have fun, sing and particpate in an orderly manner.

I'm getting paid by bar owners to bring in a crowd and make money for the bar and me. Stopping/preventing people from singing doesn't accomplish this. It's counter productive to this goal. So the maximim amount of people I can get up to sing fairly is what does this. Nothing else.

You like everyone else are left with 2 options......

1. You get with the program or

2. you get a new place to sing. You pick.

COME EARLY & STAY LATE....there is no other way to sing more...at least at my show.

Complaining doesn't get you singing any faster. If the crap gets too deep it could get you ejected. Permanently. I'm not getting paid enough to endure much crap.

Don't accuse me of stuff I'm not doing.... that makes me go totally crazy...

Nothing is worse than a crazed KJ.