Too Many Singers and What to do with Them.
I have created karaoke songs on occasion but I don't use devocalized music because it sounds so unprofessional. I'd rather use midi over that, not that I do, I usually purchase the tracks from a professional backing track company. It NEVER takes out ALL the lead vocals and if you have a lot of echos or reverb on the vocals then you're totally out of luck. I don't use these in my shows though, just at private parties that I don't get paid for that I host ever now and then. Just did that on New Years Eve.
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Blind Gregory
- Posts: 46
- Joined: Sat Jan 23, 2010 7:59 pm
- Location: The Midwest
I understand the (original... the topic seems to have changed all of a sudden) problem from the KJ's point of view, BUT...
I'm a karaoke singer.
There's a question I have about the rotations, because I feel like I get treated unfairly.
Why are new singers stuck into the rotation that's currently running?
It happens to me all the time. I check with the KJ about how many singers are coming up before I get to sing again. Then I go out to smoke a cigarette. When I come back in, I find out that the KJ has put a bevy of new singers in before me.
If it just happened to me, I probably wouldn't say anything, but it's pretty common in my experience.
Wouldn't it be more fair to all concerned to close a rotation once it's started and put the new singers into the next rotation?
As someone pointed out, we're "standing in line" to sing.
How would you feel if you were standing in line to buy tickets to a movie or concert and the manager put people in line in front of you?
I'm a karaoke singer.
There's a question I have about the rotations, because I feel like I get treated unfairly.
Why are new singers stuck into the rotation that's currently running?
It happens to me all the time. I check with the KJ about how many singers are coming up before I get to sing again. Then I go out to smoke a cigarette. When I come back in, I find out that the KJ has put a bevy of new singers in before me.
If it just happened to me, I probably wouldn't say anything, but it's pretty common in my experience.
Wouldn't it be more fair to all concerned to close a rotation once it's started and put the new singers into the next rotation?
As someone pointed out, we're "standing in line" to sing.
How would you feel if you were standing in line to buy tickets to a movie or concert and the manager put people in line in front of you?
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Blind Gregory
- Posts: 46
- Joined: Sat Jan 23, 2010 7:59 pm
- Location: The Midwest
At some point you hit the end of the list and start over again. That's why it's referred to as a rotation.Blind Gregory wrote:Sorry. I disagree.
If rotations change after they've started, why bother to have one at all?
A chaotic rotation will anger singers far faster that waiting on one with clearly stated rules.
Last week, I went to Philadelphia, but it was closed.
There's actually two things I try to accomplish with a rotation.
First, I try to make sure no one EVER sees someone sing twice before they sing, if they have a song in the queue. This makes sure I'm being as fair as possible to all singers.
Second, I try not to make people wait more than 20 minutes to sing their first song. The way this usually works out is that new singers will be placed at the end of the first rotation, and about 3 to 4 singers down from whoever is currently singing in subsequent rotations. If I get a bunch at one time they're interleaved old/new. This helps makes sure I'm encouraging customers that just walked in to stay and spend money.
A good KJ is always fair to the singers, but he also never forgets that if the bar doesn't make money, he'll be out of a job.
First, I try to make sure no one EVER sees someone sing twice before they sing, if they have a song in the queue. This makes sure I'm being as fair as possible to all singers.
Second, I try not to make people wait more than 20 minutes to sing their first song. The way this usually works out is that new singers will be placed at the end of the first rotation, and about 3 to 4 singers down from whoever is currently singing in subsequent rotations. If I get a bunch at one time they're interleaved old/new. This helps makes sure I'm encouraging customers that just walked in to stay and spend money.
A good KJ is always fair to the singers, but he also never forgets that if the bar doesn't make money, he'll be out of a job.
Last week, I went to Philadelphia, but it was closed.
How do you react when you put your first song in and the host tells you it's going to be 2 hours before you sing and you know most people there have already sung at least once? Or worse still, that you won't be able to sing at all when it's 2 hours until the show ends?Blind Gregory wrote: How would you feel if you were standing in line to buy tickets to a movie or concert and the manager put people in line in front of you?
Most people confronted with that situation simply walk right back out the door. That's lost money for the bar and an increased chance of a lost job for the KJ!
Last week, I went to Philadelphia, but it was closed.
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Blind Gregory
- Posts: 46
- Joined: Sat Jan 23, 2010 7:59 pm
- Location: The Midwest
Try to remember that I did say I understood the KJ point of view.
As to my reaction to what you brought up, been there, done that.
I would probably go to another local karaoke for an hour or so, then come back.
Not relevant. Sorry.
My point wasn't what's most advantageous to the KJ and the bar owner. I'd have to be a fool not to understand that both of you are trying to make a profit.
Putting the new singers at the end of a rotation would at least be more fair to the singers who are already in the current rotation. But that isn't usually the case, is it?
For example, one of you said he(?) tries "not to make people wait more than 20 minutes to sing their first song." Obviously that would imply that he isn't usually putting the new singers at the end of the rotation, wouldn't it?
So I'm standing in line, so to speak, and "line-jumpers" are getting rewarded for it. Granted, they probably don't know that they're "line-jumping", but the KJ does.
Putting new singers in at the end of a rotation or into ther next rotation would seem more fair to me, as one of the singers.
Why not just tell the new singers how long they might have to wait when they put in their songs? Wouldn't that be more fair to everyone?
If you KJs have to choose between making a profit and being fair, your choice is obvious. But it isn't fair.
Not to all of us.
As to my reaction to what you brought up, been there, done that.
I would probably go to another local karaoke for an hour or so, then come back.
Not relevant. Sorry.
My point wasn't what's most advantageous to the KJ and the bar owner. I'd have to be a fool not to understand that both of you are trying to make a profit.
Putting the new singers at the end of a rotation would at least be more fair to the singers who are already in the current rotation. But that isn't usually the case, is it?
For example, one of you said he(?) tries "not to make people wait more than 20 minutes to sing their first song." Obviously that would imply that he isn't usually putting the new singers at the end of the rotation, wouldn't it?
So I'm standing in line, so to speak, and "line-jumpers" are getting rewarded for it. Granted, they probably don't know that they're "line-jumping", but the KJ does.
Putting new singers in at the end of a rotation or into ther next rotation would seem more fair to me, as one of the singers.
Why not just tell the new singers how long they might have to wait when they put in their songs? Wouldn't that be more fair to everyone?
If you KJs have to choose between making a profit and being fair, your choice is obvious. But it isn't fair.
Not to all of us.
Agree 100%Blind Gregory wrote: If rotations change after they've started, why bother to have one at all?
I put new singers in strict order of first come, first served, NO exceptions!
I explain the time that's likely to pass before he/she will get up to the mike but to be fair, I can't remember the last time I had a two hour rotation. Realistically, this must require about 30 singers with requests in, I would think.
My books have this in plain language along with the other "Do's and Dont's", so there is no excuse (actually, maybe I should have it in Braile, as well
)My software automatically sorts the rotation out, so that a new singer goes at the end of the list BUT prior singers who have posted more than one song get shuffled down to sing AFTER the newly added names.
Sandy
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Blind Gregory
- Posts: 46
- Joined: Sat Jan 23, 2010 7:59 pm
- Location: The Midwest
Which is definitely fair.
As to putting the book in Braille, that might help me , but too many peole don't bother to read the books anyway... at least not around here.
Fortunately, the local KJs understand my problem with "looking things up". I try to show up early for their shows so they can help me out after they're set up and before their shows officially begin.
When the show os running, if I want to know about the availability (sp?) of a song, I either get somebody else to look it up for me or I wait until the KJ can without his show being disrupted.
As to putting the book in Braille, that might help me
, but too many peole don't bother to read the books anyway... at least not around here.Fortunately, the local KJs understand my problem with "looking things up". I try to show up early for their shows so they can help me out after they're set up and before their shows officially begin.
When the show os running, if I want to know about the availability (sp?) of a song, I either get somebody else to look it up for me or I wait until the KJ can without his show being disrupted.
You have addressed several issues that face KJs. That said, there are a majority of KJs that don't come close to running a fair rotation, ever. They also take bribes to let people jump the line. They let their friends sing more than once in a rotation. They let the hottie sing more to gain certain "favors." The KJ sings more to show off.
What I have just named is what most of us call unfair rotations.
A 2 hour rotation means that it is going to be 2 hours until you sing again. I'm regularly running 1 1/2 to 2 hour rotations or longer 5 nights a week.
When I have a packed house and the rotation is getting bigger with each song sung, there is no way I can tell if the person handing me a song slip just walked in or they have been there all night and just finally had enough to drink so they can sing. So I can't and won't start trying to make judgements on if I think a person should sing in a half hour or 2 hours from now.
The new singer rotation insertion practice seems to be the one that most KJs go with. I use it because of the reason I said before but if the rotation is that large depending upon what time I got their slip, it could be the only song they will sing that night because of the rotation length. Now would you want to be their several hours and not even get to sing once?
I'm trying to be as fair as possible to everyone there. I don't play favorites because you suck as a singer. I don't keep moving you back because you sing slow songs. I don't juggle the rotation because you are my friend, my wife, my girlfriend, my kid, my boss or the bar owner or you just slipped me $20.
My popularity as a KJ is also a curse. It keeps many singers from coming because they know they will only sing 2-3 songs if they are lucky. So what should I do? Cater to singers that won't come, so they will come?
If you're there at a reasonable time meaning before the last half hour, you will get to sing once. I think that's fair. I think the insertion method is fair. Is it the ideal solution that's going to make every single person in the world happy, probably not. I will never be able to make every singer happy. So I make the majority happy by being as fair as I possibly can be. I run the rotation the same every night. There will always be 1 complainer in the crowd. Do I make everything right for 1 or all?
There might be a time when you walk in at the exact moment the rotation is about to start over. I will put you in so you get to sing. Because it will be at least an hour or more until you sing again. Sometimes you get the bear and sometimes the bear gets you.
With a 2 hour rotation and I still have more singers walking in, when and where do you decide it's time to start the rotation over again. Pick a time? Pick a singer?
Nobody can play more singers in a night than I do. I don't play filler music. I don't play dance sets. I don't blab 30 secends between each singer. My show is nonstop. I'm not singing 2-3 times per rotation. You will sing as many times as humanly possible at my show. You won't see Bob singing twice in a rotation. Unless Bob is singing at Mary's request on her song. Bob can hand me a pile of 20 slips. If he only gets to sing 2 of them all night, that's how it goes sometimes.
My rate of insertion is based on how many new singer requests I'm getting. If they are dribbling in then they get spaced farther apart. If they are coming hot and heavy I insert a new singer in between every old singer. Everyone has to follow someone. A 2 hour rotation is a 2 hour rotation. Meaning you will not sing again for 2 hours. Doesn't matter who you follow or who follows you. It's all in the math.
You did bring up something else to think about.
We always assume that the next rotation should be based on how the last one went.
What if the next rotation was totally different? Meaning the first rotation was one hour long with Bob, then Mary, and Bill, and Jim, and Danielle....
But what if the next rotation wasn't Bob, then Mary, and Bill, and Jim, and Danielle.... and instead we started taking a whole new set of slips to be the next rotation. Meaning now the roataion is Frank, Bob, John, Andrea, Mary, Marsha, Bill, Danielle.....
Sooner or later by the next rotation Bill may have sang more than Bob who was the very first singer. Would Bob be happy about that? There are a million ways to run a rotation. Which is the most fair? Most seem unfair if the KJ play favorites and allows people to sing more than one request per rotation.
There are only 2 ways to sing more. Get there early and stay late.
What I have just named is what most of us call unfair rotations.
A 2 hour rotation means that it is going to be 2 hours until you sing again. I'm regularly running 1 1/2 to 2 hour rotations or longer 5 nights a week.
When I have a packed house and the rotation is getting bigger with each song sung, there is no way I can tell if the person handing me a song slip just walked in or they have been there all night and just finally had enough to drink so they can sing. So I can't and won't start trying to make judgements on if I think a person should sing in a half hour or 2 hours from now.
The new singer rotation insertion practice seems to be the one that most KJs go with. I use it because of the reason I said before but if the rotation is that large depending upon what time I got their slip, it could be the only song they will sing that night because of the rotation length. Now would you want to be their several hours and not even get to sing once?
I'm trying to be as fair as possible to everyone there. I don't play favorites because you suck as a singer. I don't keep moving you back because you sing slow songs. I don't juggle the rotation because you are my friend, my wife, my girlfriend, my kid, my boss or the bar owner or you just slipped me $20.
My popularity as a KJ is also a curse. It keeps many singers from coming because they know they will only sing 2-3 songs if they are lucky. So what should I do? Cater to singers that won't come, so they will come?
If you're there at a reasonable time meaning before the last half hour, you will get to sing once. I think that's fair. I think the insertion method is fair. Is it the ideal solution that's going to make every single person in the world happy, probably not. I will never be able to make every singer happy. So I make the majority happy by being as fair as I possibly can be. I run the rotation the same every night. There will always be 1 complainer in the crowd. Do I make everything right for 1 or all?
There might be a time when you walk in at the exact moment the rotation is about to start over. I will put you in so you get to sing. Because it will be at least an hour or more until you sing again. Sometimes you get the bear and sometimes the bear gets you.
With a 2 hour rotation and I still have more singers walking in, when and where do you decide it's time to start the rotation over again. Pick a time? Pick a singer?
Nobody can play more singers in a night than I do. I don't play filler music. I don't play dance sets. I don't blab 30 secends between each singer. My show is nonstop. I'm not singing 2-3 times per rotation. You will sing as many times as humanly possible at my show. You won't see Bob singing twice in a rotation. Unless Bob is singing at Mary's request on her song. Bob can hand me a pile of 20 slips. If he only gets to sing 2 of them all night, that's how it goes sometimes.
My rate of insertion is based on how many new singer requests I'm getting. If they are dribbling in then they get spaced farther apart. If they are coming hot and heavy I insert a new singer in between every old singer. Everyone has to follow someone. A 2 hour rotation is a 2 hour rotation. Meaning you will not sing again for 2 hours. Doesn't matter who you follow or who follows you. It's all in the math.
You did bring up something else to think about.
We always assume that the next rotation should be based on how the last one went.
What if the next rotation was totally different? Meaning the first rotation was one hour long with Bob, then Mary, and Bill, and Jim, and Danielle....
But what if the next rotation wasn't Bob, then Mary, and Bill, and Jim, and Danielle.... and instead we started taking a whole new set of slips to be the next rotation. Meaning now the roataion is Frank, Bob, John, Andrea, Mary, Marsha, Bill, Danielle.....
Sooner or later by the next rotation Bill may have sang more than Bob who was the very first singer. Would Bob be happy about that? There are a million ways to run a rotation. Which is the most fair? Most seem unfair if the KJ play favorites and allows people to sing more than one request per rotation.
There are only 2 ways to sing more. Get there early and stay late.
We all may be quilty of discrimination.Blind Gregory wrote:Which is definitely fair.
As to putting the book in Braille, that might help me
Fortunately, the local KJs understand my problem with "looking things up". I try to show up early for their shows so they can help me out after they're set up and before their shows officially begin.
When the show os running, if I want to know about the availability (sp?) of a song, I either get somebody else to look it up for me or I wait until the KJ can without his show being disrupted.
The building code says the building must be accessible to all. I can't remember ever seeing a restaurant menu in Braille. 
Taking a request in person could cover the discrimination part of it. I have only had one or two blind singers come to my show. I do try to be accomodating to everyone, equally.
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Blind Gregory
- Posts: 46
- Joined: Sat Jan 23, 2010 7:59 pm
- Location: The Midwest
Thank you for the welcome.
Please try to remember that I'm only expressing my own opinion, although I will hold to it. I opine that, once a rotation has started, it should be closed; not only to new singers but to anybody who turns in a request after the next rotation. Even me, believe it or not.
If not, t least any and all requests that are made after the rotation starts should ne put at the end of the rotation.
My objection is to having new requests stuck in ahead of me in the rotations.
But I'm not the one trying to run a business.
Still, it would be nice if my opinion was considered by more KJs. I really hate checking with a KJ to find out how long before my turn to sing will come so I know whether I can go out and have a cigarette, then finding out when I come back in that a handful of new singers have "bumped me back" in the rotation by fifteen minutes to a half an hour.
By the way, Bigdog, most mid-scale to upscale restaurants do have a couple of menus in Braille. They just don't take them out unless they need them.
Please try to remember that I'm only expressing my own opinion, although I will hold to it. I opine that, once a rotation has started, it should be closed; not only to new singers but to anybody who turns in a request after the next rotation. Even me, believe it or not.
If not, t least any and all requests that are made after the rotation starts should ne put at the end of the rotation.
My objection is to having new requests stuck in ahead of me in the rotations.
But I'm not the one trying to run a business.
Still, it would be nice if my opinion was considered by more KJs. I really hate checking with a KJ to find out how long before my turn to sing will come so I know whether I can go out and have a cigarette, then finding out when I come back in that a handful of new singers have "bumped me back" in the rotation by fifteen minutes to a half an hour.
By the way, Bigdog, most mid-scale to upscale restaurants do have a couple of menus in Braille. They just don't take them out unless they need them.
