Making a copy of a Karaoke CDG, whether as a backup, or a change in format to a hard drive, to the extent analyzed under the fair use rubric, should be considered a fair use. Under the court's ruling in Riaa v. Diamond Multimedia , it seems likely that personal use or backup copies of electronic media (like CDGs, ebooks, or DVDs) would be found fair use if the issue were ever litigated. [7].
Conclusion: Fair Use Protects CDG Owners
The owners of Karaoke CDGs, facilities, mobile hosting services and consumers, have invested substantially in the purchase of large libraries of Karaoke CDGs. Allowing them to copy the contents of their CDGs for backup or format-shifting to hard drives would also be a fair use, and is entirely consistent both with the legislation on copying digital media passed to date, and with traditional fair use analysis ruled on by the US courts.
Now this is an excerpt from a 2004 ruling on whether coping and or digitizing (computer karaoke) your karaoke cd+g is considered legal.
From reading this article, unless there is a newer ruling, I feel safe that I will be considered to be legal by ripping my cd+gs to a computer hard drive to run karaoke shows.
Law Offices of Robin D. Gross advises the creative community on a range of entertainment law, intellectual property rights, and cyberspace legal issues. If you wish to read the entire article the title of this thread is the title of the article.
This is not an advertisment> This is an article on their web page. It is something I stumbled across to try to put an end to the speculation of whether we are legal or not in using our computers for karaoke.
I will continue to use mine with a lot more confidence. UNLESS there is newer a ruling to top this one.
Digital Copyright Question: Fair Use of Karaoke CDGs
Nice find Bigdog!! Certainly if there is ever a scare campaign like the one discussed here rumored to have happened in Arizona, this would be an easy way to set the minds of your clients at ease. Good news for all of us! Not an official court ruling but certainly an indication of what the legal perspective likely would be and why none of the manufacturers have actually filed a lawsuit on this matter. This just confirms for me that their tactic is one of trying to scare folks into doing things their way.
Keep in mind that this ruling only pertains to making a back up copy of a disc you actually own.
This doesn't cover material you have no proof of original ownership. So if you have no original discs, but just a loaded hard drive you are not covered. You will have no leg to stand on.
It still is basically talking about a 1-1 copy. Not multiple copies for sale or other use. Such as multi-rigging. If you are doing 2 karaoke shows on the same night with only one set of original discs, you are not safe.
Computer karaoke, according to this info is totally legal, ONLY if you have the original discs.
This doesn't cover material you have no proof of original ownership. So if you have no original discs, but just a loaded hard drive you are not covered. You will have no leg to stand on.
It still is basically talking about a 1-1 copy. Not multiple copies for sale or other use. Such as multi-rigging. If you are doing 2 karaoke shows on the same night with only one set of original discs, you are not safe.
Computer karaoke, according to this info is totally legal, ONLY if you have the original discs.
UPDATE: 10/5/2007
DULUTH, Minn. (AP) - The recording industry hopes $222,000 will be enough to dissuade music lovers from downloading songs from the Internet without paying for them. That's the amount a federal jury ordered a Minnesota woman to pay for sharing copyrighted music online.
Jammie Thomas, 30, a single mother from Brainerd, was ordered to pay the six record companies that sued her $9,250 for each of 24 songs they focused on in the case. They had alleged she shared 1,702 songs in all.
Since 2003, record companies have filed some 26,000 lawsuits over file-sharing, which has hurt sales because it allows people to get music for free instead of paying for recordings in stores.
Copyright law sets a damage range of $750 to $30,000 per infringement, or up to $150,000 if the violation was "willful." Jurors ruled that Thomas' infringement was willful but awarded damages in a middle range; Gabriel said they did not explain the amount to attorneys afterward. Jurors left the courthouse without commenting.
The record companies involved in the lawsuit are Sony BMG, Arista Records LLC, Interscope Records, UMG Recordings Inc., Capitol Records Inc. and Warner Bros. Records Inc.
This is only part of the article. I took out the highlights. Oh she also owes for the music company's lawyer fees which could be 1/2 million.
OK she was file sharing on an internet web site. A blatant offense none the less. Now keep in mind that she did not have any original discs to produce as a 1-1 back up argument. This isn't a karaoke CD+G issue per say, but it includes us if you are using songs that you do not have originals for. A song, is a song, is a song. That is how the court will view it.
However we are not sharing our material. We are playing it in public. If you are not selling your music to others, you should be somewhat more protected than she was. And actually, It isn't clear if she was selling the music or giving it away.
DULUTH, Minn. (AP) - The recording industry hopes $222,000 will be enough to dissuade music lovers from downloading songs from the Internet without paying for them. That's the amount a federal jury ordered a Minnesota woman to pay for sharing copyrighted music online.
Jammie Thomas, 30, a single mother from Brainerd, was ordered to pay the six record companies that sued her $9,250 for each of 24 songs they focused on in the case. They had alleged she shared 1,702 songs in all.
Since 2003, record companies have filed some 26,000 lawsuits over file-sharing, which has hurt sales because it allows people to get music for free instead of paying for recordings in stores.
Copyright law sets a damage range of $750 to $30,000 per infringement, or up to $150,000 if the violation was "willful." Jurors ruled that Thomas' infringement was willful but awarded damages in a middle range; Gabriel said they did not explain the amount to attorneys afterward. Jurors left the courthouse without commenting.
The record companies involved in the lawsuit are Sony BMG, Arista Records LLC, Interscope Records, UMG Recordings Inc., Capitol Records Inc. and Warner Bros. Records Inc.
This is only part of the article. I took out the highlights. Oh she also owes for the music company's lawyer fees which could be 1/2 million.
OK she was file sharing on an internet web site. A blatant offense none the less. Now keep in mind that she did not have any original discs to produce as a 1-1 back up argument. This isn't a karaoke CD+G issue per say, but it includes us if you are using songs that you do not have originals for. A song, is a song, is a song. That is how the court will view it.
However we are not sharing our material. We are playing it in public. If you are not selling your music to others, you should be somewhat more protected than she was. And actually, It isn't clear if she was selling the music or giving it away.
Yes I would hope it is very clear to anyone getting into this industry that if you don't own the original discs (unless you purchased the track from a legitimate online e-music store) that you are still in violation.
Peronally I have a mix of songs on disc and those that I purchased online. I'll tell you, I've kept every original disc and the receipts from both the online and disc purchases. Not only is this good practice from a tax standpoint, but if I'm ever challenged on my ownership of the songs I have, I can show that I do properly own each one.
Peronally I have a mix of songs on disc and those that I purchased online. I'll tell you, I've kept every original disc and the receipts from both the online and disc purchases. Not only is this good practice from a tax standpoint, but if I'm ever challenged on my ownership of the songs I have, I can show that I do properly own each one.
The rule is pretty simple. You must own the original CDG and can only play one copy at a time. Sending out copies with multiple KJs is a violation.
This is why the CAVS JB-199 system is such a great technology, You have to have the original CD+G to load in, and then the song is registered inside the CAVs and cannot be moved to any other machine.
The Arizona scare was a hoax started by one misguided karaoke retail store.
Let's face it, the biggest support the recording companies have going for them are KJs. It is far more important than DJs, because DJs don't do anything more than the radio and TV media does. But KJs provide the hardware and setting and ambiance for people to perform live before the public. This is what encourages people to go out and buy CD+Gs so they can practice and then experience the reward of a good performance before a live crowd.
If there were no KJs, there would not be enough interest to support a karaoke industry.
This is why the CAVS JB-199 system is such a great technology, You have to have the original CD+G to load in, and then the song is registered inside the CAVs and cannot be moved to any other machine.
The Arizona scare was a hoax started by one misguided karaoke retail store.
Let's face it, the biggest support the recording companies have going for them are KJs. It is far more important than DJs, because DJs don't do anything more than the radio and TV media does. But KJs provide the hardware and setting and ambiance for people to perform live before the public. This is what encourages people to go out and buy CD+Gs so they can practice and then experience the reward of a good performance before a live crowd.
If there were no KJs, there would not be enough interest to support a karaoke industry.
What's to stop someone from borrowing discs from someone else and loading them into the CAVS. Or from illegally downloading karaoke music, burning it to disc, and then loading it into the CAVS.This is why the CAVS JB-199 system is such a great technology, You have to have the original CD+G to load in, and then the song is registered inside the CAVS and cannot be moved to any other machine.
The Arizona Sound Choice letters were not a hoax. I have confirmation from the Sound Choice Business Affairs Director that these letters were indeed sent to bars in the Phoenix and Scottsdale area.The Arizona scare was a hoax started by one misguided karaoke retail store.
Very good point!Let's face it, the biggest support the recording companies have going for them are KJs. It is far more important than DJs, because DJs don't do anything more than the radio and TV media does. But KJs provide the hardware and setting and ambiance for people to perform live before the public. This is what encourages people to go out and buy CD+Gs so they can practice and then experience the reward of a good performance before a live crowd.
If there were no KJs, there would not be enough interest to support a karaoke industry.
Oh dear, here we go again.
Wizeguy says, "What's to stop someone from borrowing discs from someone else and loading them into the CAVS. Or from illegally downloading karaoke music, burning it to disc, and then loading it into the CAVS. "
Nothing.
But that misses the point.
Nothing stops anyone from playing borrowed CDGs at a KJ venue either.
What CAVs does is prevent people from taking music OFF the CAVs and using it somewhere else. They are the only company in the industry that does that.
And the Arizona scare WAS a hoax. The letters you are referring to were simply warnings to bars that had hosts reported by the Arizona store. The rumor fumes were fanned by hosts who still use old technology and did not want to be forced into investing in improved technology. All legal KJs have original CD+Gs for the songs they play.
In fact, there is serious question if these letters were ever delivered. No one has yet come up with the name of the establishment under question. No one has verified actually receiving such letters. the only thing verified is that Sound choice either has or had such a letter posted on their web site. I have been all over Phoenix trying to get verification, and the only thing I found was an article in Fastlane that did not name names.
Can we let this rest? The whole thing has blown over and everyone knows what the real story is.
Wizeguy says, "What's to stop someone from borrowing discs from someone else and loading them into the CAVS. Or from illegally downloading karaoke music, burning it to disc, and then loading it into the CAVS. "
Nothing.
But that misses the point.
Nothing stops anyone from playing borrowed CDGs at a KJ venue either.
What CAVs does is prevent people from taking music OFF the CAVs and using it somewhere else. They are the only company in the industry that does that.
And the Arizona scare WAS a hoax. The letters you are referring to were simply warnings to bars that had hosts reported by the Arizona store. The rumor fumes were fanned by hosts who still use old technology and did not want to be forced into investing in improved technology. All legal KJs have original CD+Gs for the songs they play.
In fact, there is serious question if these letters were ever delivered. No one has yet come up with the name of the establishment under question. No one has verified actually receiving such letters. the only thing verified is that Sound choice either has or had such a letter posted on their web site. I have been all over Phoenix trying to get verification, and the only thing I found was an article in Fastlane that did not name names.
Can we let this rest? The whole thing has blown over and everyone knows what the real story is.
No, I didn't bring it up, It is the rumor I am trying to lay to rest, not the rebuttal of the rumor. I was replying to someone else. We need to be diligent in standing up against these misleading scare tactics. The key for ALL KJs and singers is to be sure to purchase the original CD+G, and if a backup is made, not more than 1 copy or original can ever be used for playback, and none can be given to third parties. This is still murky legally, but ethical KJs and singers who adhere to these principles are not THE ONES that companies like Sound Choice are having problems with. In fact it is ethical, knowledgeable KJs who stimulate the sales of Sound Choice recordings. We need at all times to be making these principles clear to everyone, if we ever hope to have a chance to see new technologies supported by the recording companies.
As for the copy of the Sound Choice letter you sent me, I am aware of that letter but I have been unable to come up with the name of a single Phoenix establishment to whom it has been sent. Nor was any name given in the Fastlane article. I am aware, however, of a local Phoenix karaoke retail store that was busy last year drumming up these rumors and who was also responsible for contributing to the Fastlane article.
Have you come up with a name of any establishment actually receiving such a letter?
As for the copy of the Sound Choice letter you sent me, I am aware of that letter but I have been unable to come up with the name of a single Phoenix establishment to whom it has been sent. Nor was any name given in the Fastlane article. I am aware, however, of a local Phoenix karaoke retail store that was busy last year drumming up these rumors and who was also responsible for contributing to the Fastlane article.
Have you come up with a name of any establishment actually receiving such a letter?
I'm not saying that the Sound Choice letter has any merit. Most of us agree that their legal stance is absurd. But it is foolish to believe that they are not capable of sending out such a letter. After all, they have actually formed agencies like S.P.I.N and the K.A.P.A to spread this propaganda.
I have been contacted by two bar owners who have received these letters. One of them has a web site and the email was from their domain name, the other I can't authenticate. Both have requested that I do not divulge their name. I can understand why bar owners are not in a hurry to come forward and admit that they received a warning for allowing illegal activities to go on in their establishment. They walk a legal tightrope as it is with the ever increasing number of laws that appear designed to run them out of business.
I have been contacted by two bar owners who have received these letters. One of them has a web site and the email was from their domain name, the other I can't authenticate. Both have requested that I do not divulge their name. I can understand why bar owners are not in a hurry to come forward and admit that they received a warning for allowing illegal activities to go on in their establishment. They walk a legal tightrope as it is with the ever increasing number of laws that appear designed to run them out of business.
If you are sued by anyone for anything, you are screwed. You will have to decide if you are going to hire a lawyer and defend or roll over and play dead.
It doesn't matter if you are totally innocent. To clear your name you will have to spend money and defend yourself. Because the other party has sworn in court documents that you are indeed accused of being guilty of whatever. You can not ignore it because they will have a bench warrant out for you for not showing up. Like I said you are screwed.
If a bar owner gets that letter what is he supposed to do? Are you going to shell out his lawyer fees? Most of the bars around here can go belly up in a heartbeat. Without the threat of legal action of any kind. With the economy going south as it is, we are all in jeapardy of losing our jobs. The crowds are starting to thin out already.
Talk to a gas station owner. On Sunday and Monday people pay with $20s. Tuesday and Wednesday it's $10s. Thurday and Friday it's $5s and on Saturday it's $1s and loose change.
Some of you will be forced into taking a pay cut to keep the bar open. If we go into a recession as they are starting to say on the news.
If Sound Choice decides to send a letter to every bay in the country, our karaoke business' as we know them will cease to exist. There will be no more bar karaoke anywhere in the country. We will not need to buy their discs or anybody elses anymore..
Do you think they (SC) will want to put themselves out of business totally?
Without us, they have no business to speak of.
Let's say 10,000 KJs each stop buying 100 discs a year at $20 each.
Who loses $20,000,000.00? ME????
Cut off your nose to spite your face.....send out more letters....
It doesn't matter if you are totally innocent. To clear your name you will have to spend money and defend yourself. Because the other party has sworn in court documents that you are indeed accused of being guilty of whatever. You can not ignore it because they will have a bench warrant out for you for not showing up. Like I said you are screwed.
If a bar owner gets that letter what is he supposed to do? Are you going to shell out his lawyer fees? Most of the bars around here can go belly up in a heartbeat. Without the threat of legal action of any kind. With the economy going south as it is, we are all in jeapardy of losing our jobs. The crowds are starting to thin out already.
Talk to a gas station owner. On Sunday and Monday people pay with $20s. Tuesday and Wednesday it's $10s. Thurday and Friday it's $5s and on Saturday it's $1s and loose change.
Some of you will be forced into taking a pay cut to keep the bar open. If we go into a recession as they are starting to say on the news.
If Sound Choice decides to send a letter to every bay in the country, our karaoke business' as we know them will cease to exist. There will be no more bar karaoke anywhere in the country. We will not need to buy their discs or anybody elses anymore..
Do you think they (SC) will want to put themselves out of business totally?
Without us, they have no business to speak of.
Let's say 10,000 KJs each stop buying 100 discs a year at $20 each.
Who loses $20,000,000.00? ME????
Cut off your nose to spite your face.....send out more letters....
