Yes wiseguy, you are corect. Unfortunately this thread got way off track. Sorry about that. I try to correct inaccuracies on forums like this whenever I can because somewhere there is a noob reading this board that is trying to learn. It's so much easier when you can get the correct info.
Anyway, You did bring up an interesting point, that being that you apply the compression at the main mix instead of the individual mic channels. Most of the discussion here was whether you needed it at both or just at the Mic channel. I hadn't really considered doing it only at the main mix (with a live sound background I'm used to having my inserts loaded up and I guess I wasn't thinking too well outside the box ).
I have read plenty of information on many different karaoke sites by many so-called sound experts.
I'm willing to bet that with all of your knowledge that you, for some unknown reason will fall into the 99% of KJs that do not use subs because you think that your tops alone sound great. And also use the cheapest microphones possible. (It's good enough for karaoke)
Now tell me in all the years you have been around all of the sound engineering professionals that you claim....how many bands of any professional level, or professional DJs or KJs, ever played out using only tops and cheap microphones????
WHY NOT?????
If you have all of the professional sound knowledge then you know that nothing sounds as good as a complete PA system the uses tops and subs.
So if you do not always use subs, and use the cheapest microphones on earth, and you think it sounds OK and are happy without all of the complete sound fullness and sound frequencies....why would we believe any of your knowledge???
So you are wasting all of your compression and limiters and gates and the kitchen sink...because nothing is going to make half a PA system with cheap microphones sound as good as a whole one.
My professional karaoke PA sound systems have always had 2 subs and at least $600 cordless microphones. Only the microphones have ever been compressed. I don't have to make up for lost fullness or sound frequencies. Playing with a complete PA system gives you all you need.
Information is only as good as what you practice. Do your sound engineeers recommend half PA systems for any professional application/ usage???? No professional only uses top speakers. (Mids and horns only)
Now tell me why 99% of the KJs in the entire world only use tops?????
Too lazy??
Too cheap???
Too much trouble??
Good enough for karaoke???
My hearing isn't any good???
Nobody will notice????
I compress my mix???
Nothing in this world will ever make tops alone, sound as good as a complete PA system...with subs....
Listen to your sound engineer experts and practice what they preach....no quality sound engineer would ever suggest playing out without subs...
Well backed into a corner, big dog lashes out. Nice. But hey I'll play your game a little longer because you're entertaining.
Do I run with only full-range mains? In some shows yes, in other shows no. I use one or two Mackie SRS1500's when needed, however in a small venue a pair of 600W subs can actually be more detrimental to the sound than helpful.
I'm beyond the one size fits all approach for my shows. I bring the rigging that I need for the venue to make it sound right. Subs are great but can also muffle the overall mix when used inappropriately. Check with your audio engineers on that. I don't overdrive my mains to the point that when I ask them to pull the lows for me that I'm going to rattle the cones lose. I know how to run a proper mix.
As far as microphones, you're right, I don't use $600 Shure mics and I never will (nor will I use the considerably more expensive KSM series). Not for Kareaoke. A few of the many reasons why. First, they are the only piece of my equipment that I give up complete possession over during the show. I have no control over them in the hands of another (even the most serious and sober singers drop them) and I have no recourse when one gets dropped and shattered.
Second, higher quality vocal microphones have one thing in common, background supression. Wonderful and exactly what you want when you're dealing with a professional singer who knows how to use a microphone. However, in Karaoke these are not professional singers. They are amateurs who often times don't know how to hold a mic to be heard. A little less supression means I have more flexibility to pull up their vocals when they choose to sing at arms length. Third, convenience. The UHF Vocopros I have mount 4 receivers in a single U rack space with hot swappable modules (yes I did already purchase spares from Vocopro). Definitely beats having to go down a mic when a receiver fails and taking up the addtional rack space with multiple receivers jerry-rigged together with kits from shure (or worse, some third party) to make them rack mountable.
The fact is Bigdog, we all make compromises in our equipment based on the job at hand (again your audio engineers will confirm this for you). Otherwise we'd all be using $5000 condenser mics, Midas consoles, Alesis pitch correctors and full line arrays. But then a 3/4 Million Dollar rig for Karaoke might just be overkill.
So understand this bigdog, I have no problem with you questioning me or my credibility but be very careful how you approach it. You've again managed to make yourself look the fool here because of your staunch inability to admit that someone might know just a little more than you about a certain aspect of this business. No I'm not an expert in sound engineering nor have I ever claimed to be but I do have a lot of practical knowledge from my own experiences working with my friends and business associates who are experts. I'm not here to try to prove to anyone how much I know but I will call out inaccuracies when I see them as I said before.
Once again you've driven a thread off topic to a point where the bulk of the users wish it would just go away. So again, I'll do the users here the favor of posting no further replies here. This has degraded to a pissing match and I won't be a part of it any longer. If anyone is actually interested in my credentials, they know how to use the PM feature here. I'll be happy to let you know what production companies I've worked with and any other info related to that work.
The thread is about compression and how it effects sound. But there are other factors that are more important to the overall sound. I may not possess the entire sound engineering knowledge that some KJs think they have but I know where my karaoke business reputation is and how I got here. If I want to know how to lay brick I consult a brick layer.
I am merely pointing out that I will never agree that a PA system worth anything, will ever sound good without the full range of speaker elements being employed. So that all of the musical frequencies can be represented as they were intended to be heard. I do not think that other KJs should be misled. Compression or any other unit can not or will not make up for the lose of some of the frequencies from lack of all of the required speaker elements.
It is people like you that make it sound OK for these ying-yang KJs that think something like a Passport PA system (and I use that term very loosely, that is barely acceptable for anything but playing in somebody's gameroom) to be used as a professional karaoke system. I'll buy a compressor and fix everything...that's missing.....
Asking tops only (Mids & horns) to do the work of subs is ridiculous.
If you were capable of operating your system as you claim then you could run subs always in any situation and be able to control the entire system accordingly. With near perfect results everytime.
Even the cheapest portable FM radios have woofers...You car is smaller than any bar will ever be...It has woofers. WHY?????? So you can hear the entire musical range. So a small bar atmosphere won't fly as a reason not to use subs. Transistor radio sound went out of style real fast. Nobody would ever agree that they liked that sound compared to a modern day radio, that has a complete full sound.
Using $600 microphones is my choice. It is because anything less sounds cheap. To be very honest I don't like how the $600 Shure sounds. I still prefer my $600 Audio Technicas.
Yes, I have had to spend thousands of dollars on microphone repairs over the years. My choice. It's a price I am willing to pay to hear the professional sounds/results that my reputation is based on. My expenses for my entire professional sounding karaoke PA system, has paid me back tens of thousands of times. (Literally) Nobody in my entire metropolitan area comes close to the sound/stature/reputation I have achieved. I think it has been well worth it.
Going to crappy sounding karaoke turns my stomach. I can sound like crap in my garage. I don't have to go out and pay to sound crappy.
Yes there are many people in the karaoke business that have put together very cheap systems just to make a buck. That's about all they can make. They have themselves convinced in their minds, that their system sounds wonderful. So they never feel the need to upgrade. And year after year they play with the same crappy sound. But they play cheap because they cannot seem to get and keep real jobs and they can not understand why.
I have had many people that have worked for me (that are now my competition) and people that have their own karaoke business and karaoke stores, sing on my systems, and admit that they sound great but continue to use their crap and try to justify their sound in their mind. They have made comments to me that they know I have the best system around and theirs is #2 to mine.
WRONG.....If they could tell that my sound was superior then why would they continue to use the crap they call #2???? I can not figure out this mentality. These are people that tout/sell the Vocopro brand....they run cheap microphones and only ever use top speakers. This leads me to believe that they do not have a clue about sound quality. They are just trying to make a buck. Cheap was the only franchise they could obtain.
#2 to my system??????? Let me pinch you because you're dreaming....I have more investment in 3 microphones than you have in your entire system...
You do not need a half million dollar karaoke system, but you can't use a thousand dollar one either. I will never give my cliental anything less than a full and complete sounding karaoke PA system...
Don't try to fool everyone in to thinking that half a PA system with some magical effects is the way to go.
P.S. I am as we speak, putting a karaoke system in my livingroom and it has 2-18" subs along with 2-15" mids and horns and $600 microphones. Just like the system I play out with....regularly....I won't even compromise the way I sound by myself. No audience and no paying customers. So my livingroom system will sound better than 99% of all the presently working KJs.
I always practice what I preach....no bull just the truth.
My two cents on original question: "Do you think using a compressor is overkill for karaoke or is it something you have added or would like to add to your rig?"
In my opinion, a compressor is absolutely necessary for karaoke. The reason is simple - the vocals vary tremendously due to all of these variables which the KJ cannot control:
- Magnitude of the singers voice. Some singers are quiet, others are loud
- Distance that the singer holds the mic relative to their mouth and/or the angle that the mic is held
- Type of music. Some music is quiet and intimate, other music is loud and screamy. Even within a single song, some songs start out quiet, then turn loud partway through and vice versa. Some songs have speaking parts which tend to be quiter than singing parts.
When I first started running karaoke, I didn't have compression enabled. After running the show for a few months, I found that I was manually adjusting the mic fader all night long. A quiet singers came up, I had to turn the fader up. A loud singer came up, I had to turn it down. Some songs start out quiet and I would adjust the mic accordingly, then the song switched to loud and screamy 1 minute in and I would have to race to the fader to keep from blowing peoples eardrums. This kind of unpredictable performance on the mic is exactly what a compressor is for.
After realizing this, I started playing with the compressor settings that are built into my mixer. After running for a few weeks, I've landed with compressor settings that I'm very happy with. Now when a song starts out quiet and the singer starts screaming the compressor kicks in and reduces their volume. I can set the mic fader once at the beginning of the song and usually don't touch it again until the next singer comes up. I'm typically only adjusting my mic fader +/- 6 dB the entire night. Sometimes I can go 2-3 singers in a row without adjusting the fader.
Another problem that the compressor solves is mic movement by the singer. Without compression, when the singer makes subtle changes to the mic placement throughout the song, the mic volume can change a lot. With compression enabled, the singer can turn their head or move the mic a little and I get much more consistent volume. This makes for higher quality sound for the audience.
One downside to enabling compression is that if the compression ratio is too high, you will get sibilance. This is where P, T, and S sounds are magnified out of proportion. From my experience, when the compressor is between 2:1 and 4:1, you will start noticing sibilance. To fix this, you need to follow the compressor with a de-essing filter.
This post was originally started in 2007 and was mentioning an external compressor. Nowadays, all but the lowest cost mixers should include a compressor for each input. I'm running an XR12 digital mixer and it includes a compressor for each input and I'm running a 2 channel De-esser in one of the effects slots.
I just use the single knob compressor on my mixer for the four mic inputs, it basically cuts the screamers so saving my ears as well as my speakers. It also seems to raise the whisperers a bit.
One thing I do notice though if no one is singing and I forget to lower the mic volume with all four mics active it can cause feedback as it seems to raise the overall volume of the mics. I have to remember to lower or mute all but one mic after they finish singing.
Anyway glad to see were back with some karaoke discussion in this forum rather than USA politics at last.
i compress all vocals, for both protection of equipment, and for the sound that it gives with dynamic control.
i do not compress the music at all since the studio compressed it for me already before burning it to disc or MP3
compressing the vocals also helps them sit in the mix better since they sound like they belong (compressed as the rest of the music and backup singers have been) vs sounding like you are singing over the radio.
I don't have a separate compressor unit but I do believe my Yamaha i600 system powermixer probably has it... but also I learned from a local musician when I was singing in his band years ago that the mains always need to be turned a lot higher than the channels.. I then set my wireless receivers at somewhere half way between off and midway (the sweet place is a little different on each mic volume on receiver, but you'll find it after a few tries), then go to channel and pull the vocals, usually a little higher than receiver, then the mains are higher than all channels gains/volumes (mine usually 2 or 3 o'clock, depending on venue and if I'm using their speakers or another set of mine I leave at one of the clubs). I also use 2 different mic systems (2 mics each with separate mic volumes), one set low (but I can adjust, at channel gain level, if needed)... and I always give 'new singers' a mic from that system first, great mics just adjusted lower... the other system is set to my own vocals (2 mics)... GP public, that I know can control their voice, gets the other one, 'my setting', ha... this works great for me... I was told by my musician friend that vocals are like water... the flow needs to be smooth downstream, less upstream (receiver) (never ever again touch this volume, higher downstream (powermixer channel, then the mains)... if more water pours at top of stream, it will spill over and flood somewhere before it gets to mouth of the stream... vocals should always be pulled not pushed (all downstream volumes need to be a little bit higher than the receiver)... since I have used this principal I hardly ever have feed back and I am adjusted great for the most part. Also this mix never goes into red and never has limited and shut off, always green and sometimes slips into yellow for some notes. no blowing of system or speakers. I went to another local karaoke place a while back... I told him I needed more mic volume... he said he had it as high as he could and couldn't turn it up anymore.... wrong... his mic receiver was pegged and everything else was turned down... I hate that.. I tried to show him how to mix so he could adjust his mics but as soon as someone got a little louder he went down with the channel mix and main mix volumes.... ugh. I also work alternate days with one club that has their own system and their own laptop with a program that they stream on his nights... on my nights I use my own equipment and my song library... Since we are friends and try to support eachother and the club, I showed him that one little thing and it has made so much difference in his shows.... he also uses a band type powermixer.
As some music is recorded louder than others this evens out in real time any fluctuations in volume so I rarely have to adjust that at all, I only use the compressor for the mics.
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