should websites sell info on how to be a karaoke pirate?

[DanG2006]

I just went to the main site today and was shocked to see that the karaoke pirate bible was being promoted on it. I guess the adage is that if you can't fight it join it. I for one will report any pirate I run up against as it might open up work for me.

[wiseguy]

DanG2006,

I can understand your feelings on this subject. I've been a professional KJ for over 15 years and have never downloaded pirated music. But first and foremost, I am an American that does not believe in the censorship of information. KaraokeInfo, while they may be considered unethical to the professional karaoke community, do run a legitimate business. If not, they would not have been around for so long. They sell information that can be found on the web with a little research. If people want to pat for this, so be it.

I receive over a hundred emails a month on this very subject. Frankly, I'm getting tired of responding to them. Placing this information on my site should drastically reduce the number of these inquiries. You should have noticed that the first paragraph of the page plainly states that I do not condone any type of copyright infringement. I do, however, support the right of the general public to have access to this information.

I responded to your poll with "no I want new songs and am willing to pay for them legally" selection. I do think you could have worded the responses a little better. The file sharing of karaoke songs will no more make karaoke disappear than mp3 sharing will make audio recordings disappear. The vast majority of those who do download the karaoke files are non-professionals that use the songs at home on their computer. Most professionals are too aware of the consequences of being caught with this material.

All this being said, I thank you for posting your opinion here. You are a valued member of this forum and your opinions are always welcome.

[Full House Entertainment]

First of all, I haven't seen the particular advertisement you are discussing. I will certainly take a look now...

That being said:

DanG2006,

<snip>The file sharing of karaoke songs will no more make karaoke disappear than mp3 sharing will make audio recordings disappear. The vast majority of those who do download the karaoke files are non-professionals that use the songs at home on their computer. Most professionals are too aware of the consequences of being caught with this material.

All this being said, I thank you for posting your opinion here. You are a valued member of this forum and your opinions are always welcome.

I disagree. It could very well make karaoke "disappear". What company can afford to do what it takes to produce a karaoke track and then sell a few a be copied by whole groups. To my mind that will certainly reduce the future availability of karaoke tracks and increase the price to the people that do pay for them.

As to the assumption that this is done by non-professionals; I'd have to say that someone has pulled the wool over your eyes. I've seen discussions about KJ's who have met in forums and offer their songs to one another.

One reason I feel so strongly about this is that my husband and I have a retail karaoke store. I can't tell you how many people who have objected to the price (the $7.50 disc even) and said "I'll just get it from my KJ/friend/online, et. Also, we have been KJ's for approx. 10 years and had to take a loan out to start our business and the major portion was discs. To this day we have an original disc for all our systems (unlike a recent post I read elsewhere where the KJ copied his hard drive twice so he could have 3 systems).

Just my two cents,
Susie

P.S. Haven't found it yet but I do note that there is a place for karaoke rip-offs on the home page...

[wiseguy]

I disagree. It could very well make karaoke "disappear". What company can afford to do what it takes to produce a karaoke track and then sell a few a be copied by whole groups.

Do you also think that the sharing of mp3 files, which is much more widespread, is going to make the audio recording industry disappear? Do you know of anyone who has never downloaded an mp3 file that was ripped from an original recording? There's no difference between downloading mp3's and mp3+g's from a copyright infringement standpoint.

As to the assumption that this is done by non-professionals; I'd have to say that someone has pulled the wool over your eyes.

I didn't state that this is done exclusively by non-professionals but it is a fact that the vast majority is. I've researched this subject thoroughly and can assure you that a very small percentage of the mp3+g file sharing is being done by professional KJs. I've been in this business way to long for anyone to be able to "pull the wool over my eyes".

My position here is not to condone the sharing of copyrighted material. I think I've made my opinion on that very clear. I simply believe that the public has the right to this information. If you would have this censored, what other information would you have censored?

[Full House Entertainment]

Do you also think that the sharing of mp3 files, which is much more widespread, is going to make the audio recording industry disappear? Do you know of anyone who has never downloaded an mp3 file that was ripped from an original recording? There's no difference between downloading mp3's and mp3+g's from a copyright infringement standpoint.

I don't download mp3's or take copies of any audio or video from someone... I am speaking only of sharing karaoke files. I think it's wrong and, as I also said, will make it more difficult and more expensive for those that do pay. Just because it can be done doesn't make it okay.

I didn't state that this is done exclusively by non-professionals but it is a fact that the vast majority is. I've researched this subject thoroughly and can assure you that a very small percentage of the mp3+g file sharing is being done by professional KJs. I've been in this business way to long for anyone to be able to "pull the wool over my eyes".

You've researched it? On the file sharing network maybe.... That's okay, even if it is predominately done by non-professionals, to me, it's still stealing.... It means the companies that produce this material are not getting paid for yet another copy...

My position here is not to condone the sharing of copyrighted material. I think I've made my opinion on that very clear. I simply believe that the public has the right to this information. If you would have this censored, what other information would you have censored?

I'm not going to get into a discussion on censorship... How can you not condone something but believe the public have the right to the information, then offer them step by step instruction? If they have a right to it, give it to them free, just like the karaoke files...

I can understand advertising dollars certainly but if I don't condone something I don't give a play by play on how to do it...

I agree that we disagree,
Susie

[DanG2006]

The only downloads I get are from Tricerasoft for karaoke which is a legal means of getting dowloads.
Also the first admendment does not cover illegal activities. What Karaokeinfo is promoting is as bad as selling a guide to make a pipe bomb and how to use it.

[karyoker]

This is an honest attempt to enter this discussion and not express bias but present different views on both sides of the fence. These views are colored by the fact that I come from an era that the majority accepted and protected bootleggers for they were providing a much needed service and although illegal was the result of corruption and control by big money.. The average citizen of this country still has a right to produce so much wine etc for home use. We use to have a right to hunt and live off the land now one cant even shoot a bear that wanders into ones home to protect his children…I am a member of the VFW and have watched human rights taken away at an astonishing rate…I also come from an era that whatever a family cuts up on the butcher block, what they smoke, what they do in the bedroom, what religion they profess, what they pray or sing, is nobody’s business except them and their creator. I took an oath in 1960 to defend the constitution and these rights which I will carry to the grave.

I detest these burn the pirates threads and I will tell you why.. Last year a little grandma in remote regions of New Zealand asked on KS where she could download a few karaoke songs and make a cd for her grandkids for Christmas (to sing at home). She was immediately attacked by several replies stating she was evil, one of the biggest crooks in the world and was ruining the karaoke business in this country. I was appalled and ashamed by an over reactive response by so- -called professionals. I tried to offer a formal apology but from that moment I had a hate for pirate burners..I am a man but most of all a gentleman that respects the grandma and patriarch of any family and any asshole that insults, shows disrespect, curses or don’t take their hat of at her table I will kick their ass…

Ok with all that said here we go….I have never depended on karaoke for a living just a supplement to social security. However I have been the victum of the bottom feeders for to maintain an up to date library I cant do it for less than $175 per night. I am at the stage now where I might not do steady gigs again. What pisses me off is the fact that I have spent thousands of dollars for songs that nobody ever sang or will never sing. Simply because I didn’t have the option to choose what songs to purchase on an individual basis.What business would buy inventory that was totally useless? This is a result of greed and over regulation of an industry that would rather sue grandmothers and working class instead of adapting to strides in technology. Is it fair? Is it right? Does it come from an industry that supports it’s customers, teaches how to use for profit, and responds to customer needs? F@@@@ no they don’t…They sue each other sue their selling base with a furor that totally blinds them to trends in public purchases. One example is this this.. We have done parties that teens had their selection of karaoke cd’s. Were they soundchoice, thm ? No they were out of Walmart…They don’t even realize that the customer base is shifting to private homes that have more and more karaoke systems. ( I just put in a home system that the speakers bought were 2 JBL Eon 10 G2’s at $450 apiece) Now if sound choice and others had legal downloads they would increase their sales base many fold. And peons like us who are in a very competitive and dying industry might have a chance.

Now comes some questions If somebody comes in with a flash drive with their selections are we under the obligation to ascertain their legality? NO Are we under the obligation to refuse to use them in case they are illegal? NO..If the bar says we have the karaoke selection in a locked office and you can access them using wireless. Are we under an obligation to verify their integrity? NO And I could present scenarios that nobody has even considered yet and any court would be undecided about the outcome…

Now the flipside…..My friend like a bro another KJ had a gig in a small bar for 3 nights a week for 5 years. Due to health conditions he hired a husband of one of the bartenders to host karaoke. All was fine for awhile until the owner retired and her daughter took over. They fired Lanny and the fill-in all of a sudden had a selection as big as Lanny’s and the bar put in a system..I told Lanny we neede to password protect his hard drive but being naïve and trusting we never did.We decided to let karma take its course which it did The conspiriter wasnt computer savvy and the first shows were delayed and sometimes canceled due to tech problems..He doesn’t do it anymore it seems his hard drive with all the music crashed…OOOOH…What goes around comes around…Don’t think I don’t hate thieves and people that compile a database with downloads. But guess what all the good singers and crowd followed Lanny to his new bar.. They passed non smoking in co as of 1 july and the 30th it is closing..Life is life…Now we have a bar that is no longer the karaoke spot and another closing due to social engineering.While I don’t condone illegal sources for karaoke hosts laws or forums on the net are not going to make a difference. What most don’t understand is the bar owners, patrons, and singers are sophisticated now and will determine whether a host makes it or not. Believe it or not honesty hard work and good public relations makes a business I know because I was in outside tv repair for years.. One bad complaint from a customer will erase 20 good ones.

One last analogy and if you are still reading this I commend you. I come from a rural background and when we had severe winters in this country we were snowed in for a week or two. It was our and my fathers responsibility to survive We didn’t sit on the roof and ask where is all the help? I do not depend on anybody else for my protection. I do not depend on legal bs to gain an advantage over my neighbor or competition. If he runs an illegal business it is up to my customers to decide not the feds or courts. If they are not getting rich enough on each album I could retire on one for gods sake Then I will not sing their songs or use them in any fashion to try to pay the rent and gas for one month. Give me a break…They used to have to go out and get gigs and tour in the back seat of a working mans car just like the rest of us..

…

[karyoker]

In response to the original question...I too have a forum I am under no obligation to judge or force mores on the posters..I do not condemn any law or funny restriction that restricts what people say If you are concerned with an open forum and want to regulate what the owners moderators want to link to or regulate what the posters say then go back to your country... It doesnt fly here...

[Full House Entertainment]

<snip>.While I don’t condone illegal sources for karaoke hosts laws or forums on the net are not going to make a difference. What most don’t understand is the bar owners, patrons, and singers are sophisticated now and will determine whether a host makes it or not. Believe it or not honesty hard work and good public relations makes a business I know because I was in outside tv repair for years.. One bad complaint from a customer will erase 20 good ones.

I believe that if the customers, bar owners and singers knew someone was supplying music that they stole it might make a difference to enough of them to hurt the show/bar. I also hope that illegal sources on forums and on the net will make a difference. I'm hoping there are enough honest people out there to someday make a difference. This could be naive because alot of people have no compuncton about stealing but I still hope good will eventually win...

We had a situation tonight where a guy who had been in once before and left because we would not play his burns (but offered to play our discs which were the same). The first time he just complained a little and left. Tonight he was f'ing this & bs'ing that.. Getting in my face and wanting Richard to come out from behind the booth and fight. I asked him that since he didn't like it why not just leave, at which point he said he was going to but kept screaming profanities and trying to instigate a fight. The bartender camne over and told him to leave at which point the guy picks up a bottle of beer, pours it into a glass and salts it. Again he's told to leave and he yells that he is leaving. The bartender removes the beer from his hand (he can't leave with it) and the guy flips and spills beer all over.. By this time several strong men are surrounding this guy trying to get him to leave, he keeps saying he is leaving but now wants the bartender to call him sir.... More crap happens and finally he leaves, all because we won't play his burned discs... we've never seen any originals from him and he sure hasn't bought his discs from us.... Between the three of them (2 women & him) they had at lease 2 binders of these... That's alot of money not made by the manus, distributors and retailers... and that's just what they brought out tonight... I guess he forgot the last we wouldn't play his burns..

Oh well, before he arrived and after he left we had a great time!

Susie

[wiseguy]

We had a situation tonight where a guy who had been in once before and left because we would not play his burns (but offered to play our discs which were the same). The first time he just complained a little and left. Tonight he was f'ing this & bs'ing that.. Getting in my face and wanting Richard to come out from behind the booth and fight.

I would have played the guy's discs without question and avoided the whole scene. I'm a KJ and not a judge. For all I know he might have simply made compilation discs from ones that he had purchased which is something that many singers do.

[Full House Entertainment]

Yeah, I know, a lot of people will play his burns and not know he has the original. Heck, there is a link to let you buy the info from a company on here so you can download all the songs you want for free. This is an area, for me, where if I don't condone something I act on it.

Not only this but the guy probably knows we have a retail karoake store... He was originally told about our show by some longtime friends and we have a banner in front of the booth telling about our retail store...

If he doesn't like the way we run our show there are plenty others he can go to. To me there is no cause to create a disturbance, just go somewhere where they will do what you want. And.... I don't want someone there that tries to get the KJ, or anybody else, to fight if they don't agree...

Susie

[wiseguy]

This is an area, for me, where if I don't condone something I act on it.

I don't have to condone someone's business in order to support their right to operate it. Just like I don't have to agree with someone's opinion in order to support their right to express it. Your position is very understandable considering that you own a karaoke music retail store. On the other hand, the position of the many people that have expressed their animosity toward the karaoke disc manufacturers, for ripping them off for so many years, is also very understandable.

To clarify the phrase "ripping them off". The karaoke disc manufacturers make it a common practice to include one or two sought after songs on a disc and filling the rest with songs that nobody will sing. They also charge ridiculous rates for custom compilations. This forces you to purchase a disc collection consisting predominately of unwanted songs.

[Full House Entertainment]

I'm guessing the company whose website you are promoting is a paying customer and that that is the reason you support them so strongly... I'm also guessing that since it doesn't cost you money when this type of thing is promoted and used is what makes it something you condone. To each his/her own..

[quote="wiseguy<snip>To clarify the phrase "ripping them off". The karaoke disc manufacturers make it a common practice to include one or two sought after songs on a disc and filling the rest with songs that nobody will sing. They also charge ridiculous rates for custom compilations. This forces you to purchase a disc collection consisting predominately of unwanted songs.

While I agree that a custom disc can be viewed as expensive and many songs may not be sung on a disc I also think the price will only go up once the songs are given away.

Just my two cents,
Susie

[wiseguy]

While I agree that a custom disc can be viewed as expensive and many songs may not be sung on a disc I also think the price will only go up once the songs are given away.

Raising prices would definitely not be the solution. This would only promote more file sharing. The karaoke disc manufacturers should offer all their song titles as individual electronic downloads at a reasonable price per song rate. The statistics of the downloaded songs would provide them with the information needed to produce discs worth buying. They should also listen more to the feedback and requests from their customers instead of releasing songs randomly pulled from the top 40 or from competing manufacturers.

[Full House Entertainment]

But if people are getting them free I'm not sure what would be considered a reasonable price. If people are not paying for a track because only one person buys it and then shares it with X number of people how on earth can a manufacturer be expected to lower their prices?

Also, I can't see how anyone can say that they should release their product in certain formats and what should be on them. Apparently there are alot of people sharing what they've already released and not paying for it...

I doubt we'll ever agree on this as you don't see it as a problem and promote the information on how to do it and, obviously, I don't agree with it at all for many reasons... We are on opposite side of the tracks regarding our business as mine relies on people purchasing their own songs and some of yours is an advertisement on how to get them free.

Susie